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Old 04-23-2009, 07:35 PM   #76 (permalink)
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For a further demonstration of what I mean, this is from the link I posted above:

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Poliomyelitis

In the 1950s, there were 20,000 cases of polio annually causing more than 1,000 deaths(4); many more thousand victims were left in iron lungs. This was caused because of the predilection of the polio virus for the anterior horn cells of the spinal cord and consequent paralysis of the respiratory muscles. But, what is less known, and this is quite disconcerting to me, is that between 1923-1953, before the Salk (dead virus) vaccine was discovered in 1955, the polio death rate in the U.S. and England declined on its own by 47 percent and 55 percent, respectively.(5) This is not reported or discussed by the public health establishment but, it seems, only by independent researchers (see figure 1); neither is the fact that European countries, which didn't systematically immunize their citizens, also experienced a precipitous decline in their polio morbidity and mortality statistics.

And yet, between 1951-1954, before immunization, there were still more than 16,000 cases of polio and nearly 1,900 deaths. It was not until 1991 that polio was virtually eradicated from the U.S. and other nations of the Western Hemisphere. There is no question that in this case better hygiene and sanitation and better living conditions were bringing down the number of cases of polio, but the vaccine itself, finally, was probably responsible for dispatching the final blows to the disease.
Today the disease has been completely eradicated, except for the fact that with the advent of the Sabin (live virus) vaccine in 1959, there had been iatrogenic cases of polio (up to 8 cases per year) that had developed due to activation and infection by the live oral polio virus in the vaccine. Due to this fact, in June 1999, the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) began advising doctors to use the Salk (dead virus) injected vaccine rather than the oral vaccine containing the live virus.(6)

(Figure 1. Polio death rate from 1923 to 1953. The graph shows the polio death rate was actually decreasing before vaccines were introduced. This graph is adopted from Neil Z. Miller's monograph, Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective?[5])


Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Pertussis

Diphtheria is caused by Corynebacterium diphtheriae. The disease begins with a sore throat, fever, and lymphadenopathy that progresses swiftly to respiratory distress by the formation of an occluding membrane in the nasopharynx and generalized muscle paralysis that may result in respiratory arrest. The average annual number of diphtheria cases in the U.S. between 1920-1922, the three years before vaccine development, was 175,885.

Between 1900-1930 before the diphtheria vaccine, greater than a 90 percent decline was noted in this disease by practicing physicians due to better diet, living conditions, and sanitation,(5) and yet there is no question the diphtheria toxoid played a significant role in conquering the last 10 percent of fatal cases of this disease. In 1998, there was only one case in the U.S.
Similar cases can be made for tetanus and pertussis, the two other diseases targeted by the DPT (Diphtheria, Pertussis, Tetanus) immunizing agent mixture of precipitated toxoids.
The average annual number of pertussis (whooping cough) cases between 1922-1925 (the 4 years before vaccine development) was 147,271. By 1998, this figure had fallen so that there were 6,279 cases in the U.S.

And yet, the incidence and severity of pertussis had been declining before the pertussis vaccine was introduced. From 1900-1935, in the United States and England, before the vaccine program for whopping cough had been implemented (in the 1940s), the death rate from this disease had already declined by 79 percent and 82 percent, respectively (see figure 2).(5)
Unfortunately, despite the great advances in Western nations, as many as 9,000 people, particularly children, still die annually from whopping cough mostly in Third World countries.
The same may be said for lock jaw (tetanus). The estimated average annual number of cases between 1922-1926 was 1,314. By 1998, U.S. tetanus cases had dropped dramatically to 34. Yet, this disease is still with us in undeveloped nations because of poor living conditions.

(Figure 2. Pertussis death rate from 1900 to 1935. The graph shows the pertussis death rate had decreased by more than 75 percent before the vaccine was introduced. This graph is adopted from Neil Z. Miller's monograph, Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective?[5])

Mumps, Rubella and Measles
According to the public health figures, the number of mumps cases in 1968 (the year reporting began and the first year after vaccine licensure) was 152,209. We also learn that by 1998 there were 606 cases in the U.S.(4) Immunity to mumps is acquired naturally or through the mumps, measles, and rubella (MMR) vaccine.

The average annual number of rubella (German measles) cases between 1966-1968, the 3 years before vaccine licensure, was 47,745, and there were 345 cases in the U.S. in 1998. The estimated average annual number of cases of congenital rubella syndrome between 1966-1968, the 3 years before vaccine licensure, was 823. By 1998, there were only 5 cases in the U.S.
During the 1964-1965 season, before immunization to German measles was available, 20,000 infants suffered from an outbreak of congenital rubella with deafness, blindness, and mental retardation. They contracted their disease as babies from infected mothers in uterus. Otherwise, rubella had not been a particularly difficult illness (i.e., when acquired naturally as a childhood disease). In fact, it's self-limited and frequently so mild it can escape detection. Congenital rubella in newborns is a different and more devastating disease than the childhood illness. Prevention is geared toward preventing expectant mothers from getting rubella and avoiding its transmission in uteri to their babies. MMR has been effective in reducing the incidence of these diseases and controlling outbreaks, although routine public health measures e.g., better hygiene and sanitation cannot be ignored.



From 1958-1962, before the measles (attenuated live virus) vaccine, an excess of 500,000 Americans contracted the virus annually and suffered the illness, according to government figures. Although for most children contraction of this usually self-limited illness was a rite of passage, for some, 1 per 1,000, it led to complications, the most dramatic being measles encephalitis. With the advent of the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine (MMR), the government reported there were only 89 cases in 1998. Not everyone agrees with this assessment, and again independent researchers counter that a significant decline in measles took place before vaccination was introduced in the United States and England. And, in fact, before the inception of the measles vaccine (1963), from 1915-1958, a 95 percent decline took place in measles death rate (see figure 3). That is, the measles death rate dropped from approximately 13.3 deaths per 100,000 population in 1900 to 0.03 deaths per 100,000 in 1955. Moreover, post-vaccination death rates for measles in the mid-1970s are similar to those of the pre-vaccination years in the early 1960s.(5)

Public health and the press have nothing but praise for vaccination programs, even mandatory immunization. For example, a recent (but typical) newspaper article reports: "Many Americans have either forgotten or never lived through the periods when children used to die from outbreaks of diseases such as measles or polio."(7) In this instance, the reporter quotes Dr. Walter Orenstein, director of the CDC's National Immunization Program, who noted that in a regional epidemic of measles in Los Angeles peaking as late as 1990, 4,549 cases of measles were reported with 12 deaths. The point being that the disease is still there and dangerous. Yet, Barbara Fisher, president of the Vienna, Virginia-based National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC), countered that during this measles outbreak (1989-1990), "a whole group of young mothers who had been vaccinated against measles, and therefore only had temporary, artificial immunity were not able to give their babies the protection unvaccinated mothers had given them. We saw a lot of measles in very young babies where they did not naturally occur before."(8) In other words, active immunization did not provide mothers with the long lasting immunity that is provided by acquiring the disease naturally.

In some of these infants, she speculated, the mother wasn't able to pass her immunity to them as babies because they had not contracted and overcome the natural measles virus during their childhood and therefore couldn't pass this immunity on to their babies which would otherwise have protected them for 12-15 months after birth.

(Figure 3. Measles death rate from 1915 to 1958. The graph shows the measles death rate had decreased by more than 95 percent before the vaccine was introduced. This graph is adopted from Neil Z. Miller's monograph, Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective?[5])
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:36 PM   #77 (permalink)
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And the whole point we've been making is that the vacc crowd likes to exaggerate their claims. That was the whole damned point of my statement. Then you said that I was exaggerating, so you should sort of try a little harder not to exaggerate in the very same post that you do this.
I only said you were exaggerating your claim about some magical advance in sanitation curing all our diseases.

Which you are.

Other than people learning not to drink contaminated water, advancements in sanitation are less impressive than many would claim.

As I mentioned people still engage in risky behaviors. The same type that would spread diseases like the Measles.

As Mock pointed out - the cold seems to have no trouble spreading.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:41 PM   #78 (permalink)
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I only said you were exaggerating your claim about some magical advance in sanitation curing all our diseases.

Which you are.

Other than people learning not to drink contaminated water, advancements in sanitation are less impressive than many would claim.

As I mentioned people still engage in risky behaviors. The same type that would spread diseases like the Measles.

As Mock pointed out - the cold seems to have no trouble spreading.
But as he was saying, we have treatments now that would prevent the deaths, PERIOD.

We have advanced in treatment of illnesses. By leaps and bounds. Things that were once deadly, are now merely annoyances. But instead of treating the illness (that not everyone would get, 95% of people who contract polio are asymptomatic) we still cling to the vaccine as saving lives, when it could be higher at this point of the child having a reaction to the vaccine and having an autoimmune disorder develop.
Polio is a viral illness that, in about 95% of cases, actually produces no symptoms at all (called asymptomatic polio). In the 4% to 8% of cases in which there are symptoms (called symptomatic polio), the illness appears in three forms:
  • a mild form called abortive polio (most people with this form of polio may not even suspect they have it because their sickness is limited to mild flu-like symptoms such as mild upper respiratory infection, diarrhea, fever, sore throat, and a general feeling of being ill)
  • a more serious form associated with aseptic meningitis called nonparalytic polio (1% to 5% show neurological symptoms such as sensitivity to light and neck stiffness)
  • a severe, debilitating form called paralytic polio (this occurs in 0.1% to 2% of cases)
We can treat this now. We have the technology and if we put some money into R&D I bet we could do even better.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:41 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Thanks to judicious use of vaccines, smallpox is mostly eradicated.
Note that Smallpox is no longer a given vaccine. I would venture to say that's pretty effective. What can we learn from that?

We don't argue against the use of vaccines against the really big ones. It's 36 vaccines that we have a bit of a problem with. You know the ones they are mandating that aren't a risk to the population as a whole.
I however make no such distinctions...

The smallpox vaccine and eradication effort is included in the "Billions" idea.

Not long ago they thought Polio would be eradicated. However vaccination efforts dropped off and it made something of a comeback.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:42 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Water chlorination as well as pasteurization all happened in the past 150 years, along with major advances in waste water treatment. I really don't see the exaggeration here. Perhaps I made the error of not crediting other medical advances such as antibiotics in my first post, but that's all I can really think of.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:43 PM   #81 (permalink)
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I however make no such distinctions...

The smallpox vaccine and eradication effort is included in the "Billions" idea.

Not long ago they thought Polio would be eradicated. However vaccination efforts dropped off and it made something of a comeback.
When did that happen? What source do you have?
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:45 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Polio
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However, with widespread vaccination, wild-type polio, or polio occurring through natural infection, was eliminated from the United States by 1979 and the Western hemisphere by 1991
I have read about a resurgence of the Measles, but not Polio. Let me go look that up, Collette.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:51 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Wild Poliovirus Type 1 and Type 3 Importations --- 15 Countries, Africa, 2008--2009

I am not seeing it in the US or Britain. And this is from April 17, 2009. If this is accurate, I would really like to know.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:52 PM   #84 (permalink)
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When did that happen? What source do you have?
As this isn't a topic I regularly follow unlike the two of you; obviously I don't have the source available off the top of my head.

I read it somewhere, most likely before there was an internet.

Thus any research I do to find something similar to my recollection will take longer than your staccato posts in rebuttal.

Unlike your sources which evidently are more recent, though I wonder at the veracity considering the title of the book.

I of course cant check both the book's press/criticism and a source for the Polio story at the same time.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:53 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Wild Poliovirus Type 1 and Type 3 Importations --- 15 Countries, Africa, 2008--2009

I am not seeing it in the US or Britain. And this is from April 17, 2009. If this is accurate, I would really like to know.
It was a world-wide Polio elimination effort.

And if memory serves they thought the end was near in the 1970's even.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:55 PM   #86 (permalink)
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As this isn't a topic I regularly follow unlike the two of you; obviously I don't have the source available off the top of my head.

I read it somewhere, most likely before there was an internet.

Thus any research I do to find something similar to my recollection will take longer than your staccato posts in rebuttal.

Unlike your sources which evidently are more recent, though I wonder at the veracity considering the title of the book.

I of course cant check both the book's press/criticism and a source for the Polio story at the same time.
No problem. I just hadn't heard that and I was wondering where you heard it.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:57 PM   #87 (permalink)
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ahh okay it was the 1980's

Here is a summary of the effort

WHO | 2. Polio eradication
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:57 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colette Meiji View Post
Not long ago they thought Polio would be eradicated. However vaccination efforts dropped off and it made something of a comeback.
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When did that happen? What source do you have?
There have been many articles in many sources about the resurgence of polio. Here's an example from the April 20 NY Times:

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Polio: A New Outbreak of Polio in Africa Prompts Appeal for Vaccine Funding

The International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies has made an emergency appeal for millions of dollars to fight a new polio outbreak across Africa.

“Polio is spreading again, including in countries such as Uganda which had been polio-free for more than a decade,” said Dr. Tamman Aloudat, who is in charge of health emergencies for the federation.

Despite more than 20 years of eradication efforts, two strains of polio have spread out from northern Nigeria and northern India — both places where many Muslims have resisted vaccines because of rumors that vaccine efforts are a Western plot to sterilize them.
...
Since January 2008, polio has been newly found in 15 African countries.
...
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:57 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colette Meiji View Post
As this isn't a topic I regularly follow unlike the two of you; obviously I don't have the source available off the top of my head.

I read it somewhere, most likely before there was an internet.

Thus any research I do to find something similar to my recollection will take longer than your staccato posts in rebuttal.

Unlike your sources which evidently are more recent, though I wonder at the veracity considering the title of the book.

I of course cant check both the book's press/criticism and a source for the Polio story at the same time.

This topic is very near and dear to us both. And that makes me feel a bit better. The last incidence of any wild polio was in 91 in the western hemisphere. All of the other polio cases were from the oral polio vaccine (which my oldest daughter received) If there was a recent outbreak, I would like to know. I don't want to be irresponsible in my assertions, and i don't want to do something to put anyone in danger.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:58 PM   #90 (permalink)
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No problem. I just hadn't heard that and I was wondering where you heard it.
I most likely read it in the early 1990's I would guess.

I'm old like that.
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:01 PM   #91 (permalink)
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I totally agree that we should be giving vaccines to 3rd world countries.Those conditions are ripe for disease transmission. We donated to the cause. But I think the massive over vaccination of kids in the US today is just asking for trouble.
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:10 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Its really hard trying to get any unbiased information on this Neil Z. Miller, evidently he is a favorite of the "Stop Mandatory vaccines" Set, and they have 101231153124 websites.

Thus I have no idea what his data/charts are based on.
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:07 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Why this again? A whole bunch of folks, myself included, probably just don't have the interest or energy to beat this horse again. Why not just link to the last go round.

*adds vaccination to list of threads she hopes never comes by again*
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:27 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Why this again? A whole bunch of folks, myself included, probably just don't have the interest or energy to beat this horse again. Why not just link to the last go round.

*adds vaccination to list of threads she hopes never comes by again*
hey!

I did some searching. You started the last vaccination thread prior to this one.
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:55 PM   #95 (permalink)
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*looks at the the OP*

CRIS IS A TROLL! Ban him!!! BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!!!

er, uh.. I mean... um...

Hi Cris. Lovely Forum weather we are having, here. On the forum... and stuff...

*runs away quickly*
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:06 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Its really hard trying to get any unbiased information on this Neil Z. Miller, evidently he is a favorite of the "Stop Mandatory vaccines" Set, and they have 101231153124 websites.

Thus I have no idea what his data/charts are based on.
I believe those were the mortality rates based on those particular diseases for those years. But ya, it's difficult to find unbiased info.
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Old 04-24-2009, 06:32 PM   #97 (permalink)
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I don't know if anyone has linked this yet but you might find it worth a read.

Antivaxxers make me sick | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine

"OK, so out of some masochistic need to destroy any will to live I have left, I decided to see what else the Huffington Post has to say about autism and vaccinations. Given the incredibly inaccurate and misleading article penned by Jim Carrey, and knowing that leading antivaxxers David Kirby and RFK Jr. also write for HuffPo, I was expecting to see things I wouldn’t be terribly happy about."

"But I had no idea."

"This article (Dr. Patricia Fitzgerald: Jenny McCarthy's Autism Crusade: Healing, Hope... And Controversy) was just posted supporting Jenny McCarthy and her campaign, which, if successful, will bring back measles and polio to our children. Read it if you dare."

"It was so transparently antiscience that I had to know who wrote it, and what do I see? "Dr. Patricia Fitzgerald". Oh great, I thought. A doctor. So what’s her specialty?"

"Why, click her bio! It says she’s "a licensed acupuncturist, certified clinical nutritionist, and a homeopath. She has a Master’s Degree in Traditional Chinese Medicine and a Doctorate in Homeopathic Medicine."

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Old 04-24-2009, 07:01 PM   #98 (permalink)
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This topic is very near and dear to us both. And that makes me feel a bit better. The last incidence of any wild polio was in 91 in the western hemisphere. All of the other polio cases were from the oral polio vaccine (which my oldest daughter received) If there was a recent outbreak, I would like to know. I don't want to be irresponsible in my assertions, and i don't want to do something to put anyone in danger.
I know you said Western Hemisphere, but...

WHO | Polio in Sudan – high risk of international spread

WHO | Poliomyelitis in Nigeria and West Africa

This is a topic very near and dear to my heart, because when the other organizations working to eradicate polio bailed out to work on bigger diseases, my organization stayed in the fight. Rotary International is responsible for more polio vaccines and has done more to eradicate polio than any other organization in existence today, and we have done it with privately-raised funds. Today, polio is not in existence in first world countries, but in third world countries, there are still outbreaks. Among other things, in the Sudan, we brokered a temporary peace accord between warring factions so we could go in and administer vaccines to the children. Yes, I wish we could have brokered a long-term accord, but name one other organization which can pull off a feat like that.

I'm sorry - I'm just very proud to be a Rotarian, and I'm very proud of the work we do at home and abroad. Don't even get me started on our well-building projects throughout Africa.
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Old 04-24-2009, 07:15 PM   #99 (permalink)
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First a disclaimer...

"The plural of anecdote isn't data."

However...

The 11 year old son of anti-vaccinationists was brought to the doctor with measles. Several other children in the waiting room were infected with measles via this exposure. Two developed SSPE, a chronic progressive encephalitis that is often fatal.

He was vaccinated against pertussis, but vaccines are never 100% effective. He caught the disease from an unvaccinated playmate. "He was as sick as any child I've ever seen," his mother said, and he had to take drugs for four years to recover

In just 2006 and 2007 there were 2,000 cases of measles in the UK. That's more than the previous decade, a surplus of roughly 1,600 cases. The increase is blamed on parents reluctant to vaccinate their children

One child whose parents claimed a religious exemption from vaccination was the source of a measles outbreak that affected 137 people.

A religious community with a low rate of vaccinations was the source of a mumps outbreak. 116 Confirmed and 74 suspected cases occurred in a region that normally has 10. Mumps is easily preventable via vaccine

The largest outbreak of Hib meningitis in this state since 1992 has occurred among several infants who were unvaccinated due to parental refusal. One infant died, several others were injured.

Refusal to vaccinate children has been growing in Israel, resulting in many preventable deaths from illnesses such as whooping cough and measles. In 2007 an ultra-orthodox community in Jerusalem had 250 cases of measles.

"Sadly, throughout the history of autism parents have often been blamed, specifically absent fathers and cold or "Frigidaire" mothers were implicated. So it's understandable if people still feel some stigma or guilt from such a diagnosis given such a cruddy history from the psychologists on that one. Many parents would like to believe in something, anything that explains why their child has been singled out by nature to have autism. Having something to blame, like a vaccination, therefore becomes emotionally very appealing and alleviates some of the helplessness or misplaced guilt they may feel."

Tess
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Old 04-24-2009, 07:46 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Sometimes when people post stories about small outbreaks, I think to myself that the risk is somewhere much less than my whole family dying in an airplane crash. I don't even like to say that, but when you're telling stories to prove a point, that's anecdotal as well.

I guess the response is "if nobody vaxd then it would be a much larger problem" but is that true? I mean, the level of vigilance/rapid response/treatments certainly is better now. I suppose it depends on the disease and where you live/what you do/who you are around.

To clarify, I think that the system around vax is bullshit. They need to stop giving vax in time frames that are literally legislated for convenience not risk, and start considering a more reasonable risk-based time table. At the least.

My kid is vaxd.
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