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Joshua Nightshade · 04-15-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigs

It's not in the Bible and there's no real evidence for it.

There's plenty of evidence for it, it's just not biblical canon.

Charlemagne Allen · 04-15-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khamudy

Just reading that sign, I could hear the squeaking and shrieking of the argument and evidence being bent around and around to all fit together.

I might be remembering this incorrectly, or confusing it with something else, but wasn't Adam supposed to have become bored before Eve was created and fashioned a wife for himself from the mud of the earth called Lillith (sp?) and to have fathered a load of children with her?

In some versions, God made Lilith first, and because she was independant like Adam, neither of them liked her. Then, Lilith got booted.

Eve was made from Adam's rib, and, since she was part of him so she would serve him forever.

That's the most common version of the story.

RandoymRandt · 04-15-2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Lilith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess it wasn't the Torah, it was a similar tradition:

The idea that Adam had a wife prior to Eve may have developed from an interpretation of the Book of Genesis and its dual creation accounts; while Genesis 2:22 describes God's creation of Eve from Adam's rib, an earlier passage, 1:27, already indicates that a woman had been made: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." The text places Lilith's creation after God's words in Genesis 2:18 that "it is not good for man to be alone". He forms Lilith out of the clay from which he made Adam, but the two bicker. Lilith claims that since she and Adam were created in the same way, they were equal, and she refuses to submit to him:

"After God created Adam, who was alone, He said, 'It is not good for man to be alone.' He then created a woman for Adam, from the earth, as He had created Adam himself, and called her Lilith. Adam and Lilith immediately began to fight. She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while I am to be the superior one.' Lilith responded, 'We are equal to each other inasmuch as we were both created from the earth.' But they would not listen to one another. When Lilith saw this, she pronounced the Ineffable Name and flew away into the air.

Adam stood in prayer before his Creator: 'Sovereign of the universe!' he said, 'the woman you gave me has run away.' At once, the Holy One, blessed be He, sent these three angels Senoy, Sansenoy, and Semangelof, to bring her back.

Said the Holy One to Adam, 'If she agrees to come back, what is made is good. If not, she must permit one hundred of her children to die every day.' The angels left God and pursued Lilith, whom they overtook in the midst of the sea, in the mighty waters wherein the Egyptians were destined to drown. They told her God's word, but she did not wish to return. The angels said, 'We shall drown you in the sea.’

'Leave me!' she said. 'I was created only to cause sickness to infants. If the infant is male, I have dominion over him for eight days after his birth, and if female, for twenty days.’

When the angels heard Lilith's words, they insisted she go back. But she swore to them by the name of the living and eternal God: 'Whenever I see you or your names or your forms in an amulet, I will have no power over that infant.' She also agreed to have one hundred of her children die every day. Accordingly, every day one hundred demons perish, and for the same reason, we write the angels' names on the amulets of young children. When Lilith sees their names, she remembers her oath, and the child recovers."

WOW, thanks. After reading a story as compelling as this one about "g*d", how can people say religion is superstitious hogwash?

Gigs · 04-15-2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

There's plenty of evidence for it, it's just not biblical canon.

That's what I meant. I guess I'm used to talking to Christians living around here.

Joshua Nightshade · 04-15-2009, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandoymRandt

WOW, thanks. After reading a story as compelling as this one about "g*d", how can people say religion is superstitious hogwash?

I always found the Lilith story really compelling and interesting, personally. I was quite fascinated with it as a teenager.

RandoymRandt · 04-15-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

I always found the Lilith story really compelling and interesting, personally. I was quite fascinated with it as a teenager.

It does go a long way to backstory why women suck and babies die, I'll give you that.

Cindy Claveau · 04-15-2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

There's plenty of evidence for it, it's just not biblical canon.

Evidence for what? Adam & Eve or Lilith?

Joshua Nightshade · 04-15-2009, 08:22 PM

Evidence that the story existed.

Lianne Marten · 04-15-2009, 08:23 PM

There, I changed the title.

Maybe this and the open-mindedness thread should be merged, since saying "creationism isn't science" apparently equals "I hate all christians." Saying "denouncing science while utilizing all the benefits science has given us is hypocritical" apparently equals "There is no god and you're a fucking dumbass for believing."

Or something of that sort.

Cindy Claveau · 04-15-2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandoymRandt

Well, funny, while I was in Malaysia my mother in law's friend gave me a handful of "what it means to be a Muslim" books (thankfully they were all thin). The one on science actually points out that Islam---and I know this is hard to believe---is a rational scientific religion in comparison to Christianity...if you know the history of Islam you'll know that in fact Islamic scholars are arguably the cause of the end of the dark ages...

...anyhow, in that little book, it seemed to claim that Islam and evolution have no major conflicts with each other, nor does Islam have conflicts with other sciences such as quantum mechanics, or modern medicine.

It went after the bible in fact for being pretty archaic.

I may have my timeline off here, but I believe sometime in the 16th and 17th centuries Islam sponsored more free thought and scientific inquiry than any other religion.

That said, it wasn't all cherry pie:

Cosmology and the Koran: A Response to Muslim Fundamentalists

Quote:

Muslim Fundamentalists are fond of claiming that the Koran miraculously predicted the findings of modern science, and that all of its factual scientific claims are flawless. There are two important objections to this claim that I will make, one pointing to a general problem, the other a specific example of the failure of the claim. The tactic in general has also been criticized by Muslim intellectual Imran Aijaz (see part 2 of "Evidentialist Apologetics in Islam) and I have criticized other examples of it elsewhere ("The Koran Predicted the Speed of Light? Not Really," "Predicting Modern Science: Epicurus vs. Mohammed."

To me the bottom line is that it really doesn't matter if a particular sect accepts or rejects science - it matters not a bit to science. Culturally, it can mean a higher standard of scientific investigation or better education but other than that, not believing in science is like not believing in gravity - you're still subject to the effects.

Richie Waves · 04-15-2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimee Weber

SLU doesn't have the kind of creationist who boldly assert some of the utter nonsense displayed in the OP video.

We used to have Thunderclap... but he was cleared off for being racist..

**Envoy Costagravas** · 04-15-2009, 08:30 PM

No, Liane, you don't need to go off the sarcasm deep-end - titling any thread implying people are laughed at is bound to skew the numbers you attract. The creationist video was just laughably wrong (but, ffs, that person was ridiculous without the stupid stutter edits), and I liked the open-minded video (as long as you're in edit mode, maybe put a link to the thread where you mention it in the first post).

Joshua Nightshade · 04-15-2009, 08:31 PM

Speaking of Lilith, and I share this with great personal heckling towards myself, this is a poem I submitted for a creative writing class when I was 15. I was a dark, dark child.

I liked Tori Amos a lot back then okay? Don't judge me.

Joshua Nightshade · 04-15-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

We used to have Thunderclap... but he was cleared off for being racist..

Sadly no, Thundercrap was booted for stealing someone else's clothes in SL and reselling them as his own, then threatening to sue Cristiano if Cris didn't delete the thread after he had his ass thoroughly handed to him when he was proved a liar.

Cindy Claveau · 04-15-2009, 08:33 PM

You haz Pison?

Cindy Claveau · 04-15-2009, 08:34 PM

Even at that age, Josh talked a lot about Adam

Lianne Marten · 04-15-2009, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Envoy Costagravas

No, Liane, you don't need to go off the sarcasm deep-end - titling any thread implying people are laughed at is bound to skew the numbers you attract. The creationist video was just laughably wrong (but, ffs, that person was ridiculous without the stupid stutter edits), and I liked the open-minded video (as long as you're in edit mode, maybe put a link to the thread where you mention it in the first post).

I'm not gonna hand-hold anyone. It's five or six threads below this one. The youtube video I linked to is the first in a series of 29.

I found them extremely interesting, that's the only reason I posted this thread. If someone watches the first one, isn't interested, and stops... that's fine with me. I just wanted to share.

**Envoy Costagravas** · 04-15-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lianne Marten

I'm not gonna hand-hold anyone. It's five or six threads below this one.

Sorry - I read using iSpy or "New Posts", but I understand not wanting to go that extra step.

Quote:

The youtube video I linked to is the first in a series of 29.

All on the same subject? Yikes, it was pretty well debunked in the first minute or two!

Ranma Tardis · 04-15-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surreal Farber

Might want to ask Ranma.

Sighs, I still think it was staged, this thread is really offensive to me!

Joshua Nightshade · 04-15-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranma Tardis

Sighs, I still think it was staged, this thread is really offensive to me!

Why do you find it offensive to talk about a video you think was staged?

Lianne Marten · 04-15-2009, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Envoy Costagravas

All on the same subject? Yikes, it was pretty well debunked in the first minute or two!

It shows a clip or a few clips from a creationist video or creationist response to an earlier video of his, then he dissects their arguments.

It really does end up covering a pretty wide range of topics, not just analyzing creationism but discussing science as a whole.

My favorite one is number 17, since it gets into why he is so angry about all this. I feel it is justified.

YouTube - Why do people laugh at creationists? (part 17)

CoyoteMomiji · 04-15-2009, 08:43 PM

SOMEONE PACK RANMA IN LAMBSWOOL BEFORE SHE'S AFFLICTED WITH ANOTHER YOUTUBE VIDEO

Richie Waves · 04-15-2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

“It often happens that even a non-Christian knows a thing or two about the earth, the sky, the various elements of the world, about the movement and revolution of the stars and even their size and distance, about the nature of animals, shrubs, rocks, and the like, and maintains this knowledge with sure reason and experience. It is offensive and ruinous, something to be avoided at all cost, for a nonbeliever to hear a Christian talking about these things as though with Christian writings as his source, and yet so nonsensically and with such obvious error that the nonbeliever can hardly keep from laughing.

“The trouble is not so much that the erring fellow is laughed at but that our authors are believed by outsiders to have held those same opinions and so are despised and rejected as untutored men, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil…How are they going to believe our books concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven when they think they are filled with fallacious writing about things which they know from experience or sure calculation?

“There is no telling how much harm these rash and presumptuous people bring upon their more prudent brethren when they begin to be caught and argued down by those who are not bound by the authority of our Scriptures, and when they then try to defend their flippant, rash, and obviously erroneously statements by quoting a shower of words from those same Sacred Scriptures, even citing from memory those passages which they think support their case, ‘without understanding either what they are saying or things about which they make assertions’ (I Tim. 1:7)” - St. Augustine in The Literal Meaning of Genesis

St. Augustine on using the Bible against evolution « Dracil’s BlogJournal

Ranma Tardis · 04-15-2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Why do you find it offensive to talk about a video you think was staged?

Why there is no proof that it is real, just a soundbite taken from somewhere. As I said the residents here take delight in bashing Christians. While this by itself is not enough it fits a pattern. A pattern of christian bashing threads. A lot of this material is really offensive to me! What ever happened to the ignore threads?

Gigs · 04-15-2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Speaking of Lilith, and I share this with great personal heckling towards myself, this is a poem I submitted for a creative writing class when I was 15. I was a dark, dark child.

I liked Tori Amos a lot back then okay? Don't judge me.

OMG, we should totally have a "bad poetry you wrote when you were a teenager" thread"...

I'm going to go make it.

04-15-2009, 08:23 PM	#59 (permalink)
Lianne Marten Cheese Baron It's a brand new day, the sun is high. Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: All the birds are singing that you're gonna die. Posts: 1,478 My Mood: SL Join Date: 5/6/2004	There, I changed the title. Maybe this and the open-mindedness thread should be merged, since saying "creationism isn't science" apparently equals "I hate all christians." Saying "denouncing science while utilizing all the benefits science has given us is hypocritical" apparently equals "There is no god and you're a fucking dumbass for believing." Or something of that sort. __________________ I hope that whoever you are, you escape this place. I hope that the world turns and that things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that even though I do not know you, even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you... I love you. With all my heart, I love you. -Valerie

04-15-2009, 08:30 PM	#62 (permalink)
Envoy Costagravas One never knows for sure SLU Supporter Diplomacy, with one in the chamber... Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: On diplomatic assignment, somewhere... Posts: 3,814 My Mood:	No, Liane, you don't need to go off the sarcasm deep-end - titling any thread implying people are laughed at is bound to skew the numbers you attract. The creationist video was just laughably wrong (but, ffs, that person was ridiculous without the stupid stutter edits), and I liked the open-minded video (as long as you're in edit mode, maybe put a link to the thread where you mention it in the first post). __________________ "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter." ~ Benjamin Franklin

04-15-2009, 08:43 PM	#72 (permalink)
CoyoteMomiji Tarot Obsessor Zzzt zzzt zzzt Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,496 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 19 SL Join Date: 01/26/06	SOMEONE PACK RANMA IN LAMBSWOOL BEFORE SHE'S AFFLICTED WITH ANOTHER YOUTUBE VIDEO __________________ Slick closed until further notice. Recidivist Sideways: YOU'LL TAKE MY ROUGH, BUTTERY FRIENDSHIP, AND YOU'LL LIKE IT

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04-15-2009, 08:22 PM	#58 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Account Closed Unedited Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 33,567 My Mood:	Evidence that the story existed.

04-15-2009, 08:31 PM	#63 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Account Closed Unedited Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 33,567 My Mood:	Speaking of Lilith, and I share this with great personal heckling towards myself, this is a poem I submitted for a creative writing class when I was 15. I was a dark, dark child. I liked Tori Amos a lot back then okay? Don't judge me.

04-15-2009, 08:33 PM	#65 (permalink)
Cindy Claveau Cheap but never free "-ish" Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 12,554 My Mood: SL Join Date: May, 2005 Awards: 2	You haz Pison?

04-15-2009, 08:34 PM	#66 (permalink)
Cindy Claveau Cheap but never free "-ish" Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 12,554 My Mood: SL Join Date: May, 2005 Awards: 2	Even at that age, Josh talked a lot about Adam

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