Malachi

In the discussion thread here about the book and film "Twilight" it was pointed out just how passive and enthralled the girl was and how manipulative and commanding the golden boy she desired was. The story is a relatively classic romantic fairy tale told in horrid prose.

My pubescent daughter - like many of her peers - are much enamored of the books and film and I'm planning on discussing the theme with her. Not because I think she doesn't separate fantasy from reality, but because of a general cultural confusion regarding sex roles. By confusion I mean that we believe that women and men are equals and their relationships ought reflect that ideal yet we have a persistent mythology of women wanting to be swept off their feet by a prince charming.

Here is my preconception which I'd love to have holes poked in: women actually do want their mate to be caring, controlling, dominant, and dare I say paternal to some degree despite our intellectual belief that they don't or shouldn't. I think a great example is in the song "Someone to Watch Over Me" written by a couple of men almost 80 years ago but which has been recorded a whole lot of women up to the current day including notably "strong" women like Rickie Lee Jones and Sinéad O'Connor. If the song represented an idea or sentiment which has become repugnant over the century it would likely be dropped from the old standards, but even Amy Winehouse has recorded it in this decade.

So why do we like the fantasies that we like? Because they resonate with our intrinsic desires? In the case of Harry Potter novels, you couldn't ask for more adolescent wish fulfillment: socially outcast kid turns out to have superpowers that win him the respect of everyone. What's not to like about that? Interestingly, Potter appealed about equally to boys and girls. Did it hit the same nerve in both sexes? Did boys see the powers they wanted and the girls see a powerful, crushworthy boy or did they both see themselves in Harry?

Would I do well to ask my daughter to analyze the power relationship in Twilight and suggest that she view Bella as someone whose desires were detrimental? Am I granting too much power to modern myth as a cause rather than a reflection of humanity?

Yeah, it's kind of a big question, but you folks are some of the best I know whose answers will enlighten me. Thanks.

Malachi

Chip Midnight

As any nice easy going non-controlling accommodating guy can attest, women seem to prefer obnoxious jerks who treat them like shit. In the world of relationships, nice guys really do finish last, generally speaking. When my last girlfriend broke up with me, one of her primary complaints was that I was "too accommodating."

Briar Bing

I try really hard to convince myself that this is not true, Chip. Sadly, my personal experiences indicate otherwise.

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Lo Jacobs

Etta James' songs are all about unrequited love and being walked all over by a man but loving him anyway. Nobody can say she herself is a pushover ...

This is a bad statement. Women are not a baseball team. We do not always want the same thing, and sometimes we don't know what we want (I'm not one of those people). And I'll be damned if any man thinks he can or should control me.

Harry Potter had some great strong female characters and the smartest person in the book (aside from Dumbledore) is Hermione. It is obvious from the books that JK Rowling believes in tolerance and decency, as well as intelligence in both sexes. The message is very clear here and it's one of the many reasons why I like those books.

I'll tell you what I want. I want a smart, well-read guy who views me as an equal. Someone who includes me in his thought process as I include him in mine, someone who likes to discuss things. More importantly, I want someone who understands the why in things. Why do people do the things they do? Why does he like Frank Zappa? Even though Frank Zappa songs should never be played within my hearing range?

I don't want a pushover and I don't want someone who reads Maxim magazine (I want someone who reads the New Yorker and Harper's) and I don't want an asshole.

It's true some women want someone who is dominant, and that works for them. Some men want someone who is dominant too.

I've got a bit of a hangover so I'm sorry for the misguided direction of this post, but hopefully it makes some sense. I have a lot to say on this subject.

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Circe Timtam

Wait, what? How can someone be TOO accomodating? She was nuts.

Personally I cannot stand egotistical jerks who treat me like shit, so I am one of those non-typical women I guess.

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Chip Midnight

If I ever figure it out I'll be sure to let you know.

Briar Bing

Well, there is sometimes a grain of truth in well-known generalizations. There's a reason that the "Women say they want nice guys, but really want bad boys" type of generalizations exist.

Of course, not everyone is going to fit those (or any other) generalizations, and I applaud you for not being that way, but I will tell you Lo, as a 43 year old male - my male friends and aquaintances who are overbearing with women tend to have some sort of draw that I don't. Some women also seem to get into a cycle with them, where they go back to this type, even after repeatedly being mentally and/or physically abused. My mother is one of them.

Lo Jacobs

I don't like this statement, sorry. The myth of the "nice guy"? He doesn't exist. "Nice guys" -- oh, you mean the same ones who hang around and do things for you and listen to you and hug you when you're being sad about some other dude? Those nice guys? You mean the ones who wait and wait and wait and wait and don't understand why this woman never looks at you as a romantic interest when you treat her so, so well? You mean the nice guy who is really only being nice so that maybe, one day, he might be able to sleep with her?

I don't call that nice. I call that manipulative and self-serving.

No well-balanced woman ever broke up with a guy for being "nice".

Briar Bing

You're so against generalizations that you toss one back?

Lo Jacobs

In addition, Chip, I don't know why your last girlfriend broke up with you. But maybe she wanted more from you that you weren't giving her. Maybe she wanted you to be more opinionated. I don't know. But being an asshole is not the answer, guys.

Rose Alba Karuna

My current husband is a sweet, non-controlling great guy with a lot of integrity and a fabulous sense of humor. That said; he was also in the marine corps during Vietnam. Being a nice person is not synonymous with being unwilling to do what you believe is right.

My first husband was a mean SOB wearing the shell of a nice, sweet guy. (The first time that my Mom met him she gave me a stuffed wolf wearing a sheeps skin). She saw it right away.

My point I guess is that sometimes we are inexperienced or mesmerized by sexuality and see only what we want to see in a person. That does not mean that we want to be with someone who mistreats us, it just means that at times, things can cloud our better judgement.

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Cindy Claveau

Absolutely. I would. I didn't raise my daughter to be a doormat any more than I want her to be a domineering bitch - but learning the value of healthy mutual respect and love is the greatest and hardest lesson in life. I'm not sure I even understood it until well into my own 20s, if then.

Fortunately for my daughter, she's had a couple of those asshole boyfriends who drove my point home far better than I could. She isn't attracted to boys who will let her walk all over them, but she doesn't hesitate to give them the boot up the butt if they're insufferably arrogant bad boys, either.

She and I agree on one thing. Pink is a feminist philosopher of our time. (edit: Crap, embedding disabled. Click on the title bar, I love this video and Pink is hot hot hot!)

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Brenda Archer

I don't like controlling guys, and I also don't like guys who think they are not controlling, but really are (generally by being passive-aggressive and destructive).

Well, I'm single now, so what do I know.

My pattern has been to have close male friends, but not to be able to keep any kind of romantic relationship. My friends are the bestest, so it's not all bad.

But it seems to me that a lot of men are very programmed by cultural ideas of marriage. If what we're doing doesn't match up to that, they break it off even if the relationship is going well. So I wind up with equal friendships, and no marriage.

Why can't people make a marriage be anything they want? Why are so many otherwise rational guys so attached to the old marriage script? I don't even think they're trying to be controlling. It's more as if they don't think it's a marriage unless the script is followed, so they give up.

Ingrid N

There's a difference between being a nice guy, being a Nice Guy and being a fucking pussy.

Sadly, a lot of guys who aren't exactly, shall we say, "alpha males" mistake being nice for being a doormat and then complain when people walk all over them.
Sadly, a lot of guys who call themselves "nice" are really just incredibly passive-aggressive.

I have yet to break up with someone for being "too nice" but when he (or she, actually) answers "whatever you want, dear" to everything I ask I have a hard time respecting him. I don't like jerks either, trust me, but I want my partner to be their own person, and I don't expect them to accomodate me with everything.

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Lo Jacobs

This is an unhealthy pattern that many women do seem to fall into. There's a book out there called "He's Just Not That Into You" which, while it has many flaws, has some really good points too (he's not calling? He's not that into you. Move on).

I think the fact is that many people are flawed, not just women, and the reasons that a relationship works or doesn't are too varied to blame it on something as simple as "chicks dig jerks." In fact, it's sort of insulting.

Merovigan

And also, I think a great song to highlight that comes from the (very strong) Sheryl Crow in her song Strong Enough to be my Man.

Also the underlined is important - she's not going to help you understand what's going on, you're either supposed to know or not give a shit because you're in charge. But if she has to mother you through her bullshit, she's not interested in you.

Generally speaking, at least.

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Chip Midnight

Neither do I. Many women seem to be unaware that there are these things called words that can be strung together into sentences and used to convey important information about inner feelings, needs, and desires, beyond "I don't know what I'm feeling." I guess brutishness is a suitable substitute for psychic powers.

Beau Perkins

I think younger woman fall for that Chip. As woman mature they seem to look for the better qualities that make up a "nice guy".

Of course I can just be talking out of my ass. I found a woman when I was 23 that likes all four of my personalities so I married her.

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Arilynn

Controlling from a friend or partner of any sort will kill my relationships very quickly. I know it can be a fine line between being helpful/taking control of trivial things and trying to control me in a significant way. But if a person crosses that line the true relationship is basically dead. I probably tend to overreact to this as I have enough people in my life telling me what they think is going on or explaining crap to me. I don't need more from a BF and I'm not willing to tolerate even a small bit of it.

Circe Timtam

You know, I never took that song to mean that she wanted a man that was 'in charge'.

Brenda Archer

So now I wonder if the women who won't communicate make it harder for the ones that do. Because I *will* tell my guy what I am feeling. I don't pout and sulk and stomp. I just say it. Now it's true that anyone can be unaware of what they feel, but I'm pretty talkative. This doesn't seem to actually get me any points with guys. It doesn't drive them away either. But like I said - it's not the script. So I have men friends and no spouse.

Asher Bertrand

I told Kill as we left the theater, "See, every girl needs a vampire boyfriend." I gave her two (in roleplay).

But, yeah. The whole archetype of a protector who looks after you is pretty common, from Edward Cullen to The Goddamn Batman (if you consider a city a "you.") Or if you want to be controversial about it, throw God into the mix. I don't think that is either good or bad, when expressed in real life. There's nothing wrong or shameful in wanting someone you know will be there to catch you when you fall, literally or metaphorically. But if you can't function without that, then you're setting yourself up for trouble and opening the door to a potentially abusive relationship.

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Cindy Claveau

Do you see what you just described? The girls who are attracted to asshats and irresponsible rebels don't have lasting relationships because those aren't the guys who can give it. It may take some years of maturing for most (never all) women AND men to finally see the pattern, but at the end of the day it's the stable, considerate, mature guys who get the best girls. And vice versa.

Malachi: I think I'm just as concerned with making sure my daughter understands the value of her body, too. Giving it away too freely tends to breed disrespect and attract the very sort of man who isn't going to give her happiness. And I know, from hearing about some of her classmates, that there's probably as many girls who will fall into bed with a guy to feel loved as there are guys who just don't consider the girl's feelings or needs and will use whoever lets themselves be used.

Briar Bing

Well, should I feel insulted that if Chip or myself point out that SOME women seem to embrace some sort of dichotomy with respect to men, we are probably passive-aggressive pussies? If it doesn't apply to you, or other women on this thread, then I am not sure where the foul is. I am not calling you a liar -- I am taking your word that you are not like that.

I am hardly passive-aggressive, and the last couple of relationships I have been in ended because I stood up for myself.

Do either of our statements prove that there are not passive-aggressive men, or women who seem to not know what they want? Not at all, in my opinion.