Rev Eponym

Fuck this, I finally made it to single, and I think I'll stay. Forever.

.

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Trout Recreant

But they're shoes. Little ones. How do they do that?

/me tries really, really hard to comprehend, then twitches as a loud cracking sound comes from his skull and smoke starts billowing out his ears.

Oh great. I just had that new brain installed last week. I hope the transmission is still under warranty.

Asher Bertrand

Some things are better off just being accepted rather than understood

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Arilynn

I am just digging backward through this thread to find the little shoes...

Trout Recreant

Well, ok, but I have to warn you. Asher wasn't making it up like I thought he was. They actually are microscopic footwear. Unless you are an infant with impeccable fashion sense or you have some severely small feet, I just don't see much hope for those shoes doing you any good.

Although, now that I think of it, Brenda Connolly would probably want them as Christmas Tree ornaments. I can see that.

EDIT: In retrospect, one of the funniest things is that I honestly thought Asher was just totally making something up until I googled it.

EDIT#2: Killian - I hope you know I'm just teasing about the shoes. I actually do have a bunch of completely worthless die cast Chevy Trucks. They make me happy and pretty up my office. It's the guy equivalent of the shoes, so I get it.

Circle Widdershins

Back to the OP for a minute

This is a super intresting discussion.

About abusive relationships: I work with women escaping domestic violence and the fact is, that most men who tend to be controlling and abusive within a relationship certainly don't start that way. It is not generally true that anyone is attracted to abusive behaviour straight off the bat! Unless they have severe traumas maybe.

In general, and this is a pattern I've seen over years of this sort of work and it is scarily archetypal, your typical abusive, controlling partner starts the relationship as a caring, sensitive, generous and incredidly thoughtful and exciting guy. Declaring his love for all the world to see, expensive gifts etc etc etc. (Jumping up and down on the sofa during an interview with Oprah springs to mind.) I personally think that this type of person tries harder in the beginning than a non-abusive person. Up until the point where they feel secure in the relationship.

Then the cracks start to appear. It generally starts with subtle criticisms or something minor, and the other person writes the behaviour off as a 'bad day' or 'maybe I shouldn't have bought that extra pair of shoes'. The abuse grows incrementally, and becomes normalized, until the abused person is being abused on a daily basis for things which don't exist. For example: having an affair with the 80 year old down the street, also: being told they can't be trusted, no one else would ever love them, and he'll kill her/the pets/her family if she dares try to leave. Plus set the welfare on her so that the kids are removed 'cause she's such a bad mother. And all tactics used are about power and control in the relationship, without fail. A scared person is much easier to control.

Sometimes this behaviour takes years to appear, sometimes months.

Thankfully these guys are the minority, but they are often single. Another thing to look out for is the fact that this type of personality will often perceive themselves to be the victim - of childhood, their mother/father was emotionally abusive, no-one ever gives me the promotion at work etc etc. And their ex was always a lying cheating whore who robbed him blind and stole the children from him.

Er, back on track, sorry for the wall of text

I think that there is an attraction of a biological nature to alpha males in many women. Maybe it's hard-wired in our systems that we DO need a provider and protector for when we are pregnant and thus less mobile and more vulnerable. Unfortunately, media and social stereotyping have tended to blur the multifaceted individual into one dimensional caricatures of character.

I truly think that an alpha male doesn't have to be the one punching out his opposition on the football field, but can be the one with the smarts to beat opponents at chess.

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Treasures ~ Jewelry and Accessories

Sooz Pascale

Okay...I've lurked around reading these posts so damned long I am ready to POP!!!!

I can't help it.

First, the answer to the original post varies..there as many answers as there are individuals. Women are NOT all the same and of course men aren't either.

Its not only a function of basic personality but also education, socio- economic status and recreational proclivities [e.g. bookishness, outdoorsy, sports minded, etc.] For example a rather bookish, literate woman would probably become bored with a die hard NASCAR fan and vice' versa.

Having one foot on each side of the gender fence, as do Madhu and Beebo to a certain extent either gives me a unique perspective or, alternatively makes me so confused that I am incapable of rendering a coherant opinion. Take your pick. It won't stop me, however.

I THINK there are certain qualities that both men and women look for in a mate. They would include, but not be limited to, consideration of the other's feelings, an ability to articulate one's feeling toward the other in an understandable way, a feeling that YOU and only you are special to the other person and a feeling of safety in that you can comminicate your innermost feelings and desires without being made to be feel cheap, wierd, shabby or otherwise WRONG.

Its interesting that so many examples of what people are looking for are found in movies. These are not real people. They are, by nature one dimensional. I do this too, so I am not being critical.

Its also interesting that Atticus Finch came up so often. I read To Kill a Mockingbird when I was in my teens, before I saw the movie. Its one of the reasons I went to Law School and one of the reasons I practice the type of law that I do. In my mind's eye, I never saw Atticus Finch as Gregory Peck until I saw the movie. I saw Atticus as older, less physically attractive and....tired.

I agree though that the Atticus Finch character is one of the most appealing. I will add a few to the mix, although the references will be obscure to most SLUers. I would add the Augustus McRae character from Lonesome Dove [played by the always excellent Robert Duvall] to it. There is one scene which neatly sums up the character. McRae is a slightly over the hill Texas Ranger in...oh...say the late 1870s, early 1880s who is on a cattle drive to Montana with his colleague Woodrow Call. McRae is a bit of a joker, seems to be a neerdowell windbag until he arrives in a saloon in either Austin or San Antonio. There is a faded photo of McRae, Call and othe rangers behind the bar, but no one recognizes him. The bar tender makes a couple of disparaging comments before finally bringing the bottle of whiskey and the glass. McRae grabs the guy by the hair, SLAMS his face down on the bar twice, then throws the glass in the air and shatters it with one shot from the old style Army .44 cap and ball pistol. He then addresses the shocked poker players in the saloon with the statement that he "won't abide a surly barkeep." Ergo, an element of surprise, even danger [although directed at others] and the realization that this guy has more to him than one realizes at first.

The second is from Gettysburg - Union general John Buford, played by Sam Elliot. Buford's no kid..no flashy youngster like George Custer or JEB Stuart, but a quietly competent old school cavalry officer who learned his profession on the high plains in the old west. Buford's division rides into the small town of Gettysburg and in the words of one of his scouts, "the whole damned reb army is coming down that road." Buford is outnumbered. What does he do? Does he bemoan his fate? Does he run? Does he CRY for reinforcements?

No. He sents a courier to the advance party of his army, surveys the ground and determines to hold and protect the high ground until the rest of the army comes up. The cards are stacked against him and he knows his task will be difficult, if not impossible. He allocates his available resources, changing the plan as the situation develops and waits for Reynolds. It is along wait, but he holds. Ergo, quite competent courage without bluster or bragadocio in the face of adversity.

Ok, this has gone on too long. I hope I have communicated my take on this, but I fear not.

I could go on and on and on for hours...about both genders actually, but I think you get the idea.

Not to derail the thread, but the types of women I find attractive can be found in DROVES in two places. One, any courthouse. Crisply suited female attorneys stalking through the halls are a joy to observe. Two, any bookstore. The sight of bookish women, often mothers with their children, exposing them to the joy and wonder of books always makes me feel a little better about the human race.

My two cents.

Sooz

Sooz Pascale

And I will bet any takers a bottle of Makers Mark that YOU have a collection of tiny, fake insects with the teensiest little hooks attached. Am I right?

Sooz

Asher Bertrand

Yes, yes, but what about the miniature shoes?

Aimee Weber

My cousin mimi used to collect mini shoes.

I, on the other hand, collect full sized Doc Martin boots.

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"I asked the Ouija Board about the ideomotor effect, but it just told me to f*ck off."

Trout Recreant

Yes. An enormous collection, the majority of which I made myself with bits of fur, feather, thread and the help of an exquisite Italian tying vice (one of my prize possessions). But those have a purpose other than to lie around and look like bugs. I tie flies to be used, not to look pretty.

Sooz Pascale

And therein lies one of the most profound differences between genders. Men SAY they tend to collect things either for potential value [e.g. stamps, coins, baseball cards] or for utility [e.g. fishing lures, tools, cars] or both. Women collect things because they like them.

Sooz

Trout Recreant

I readily admit that my die cast trucks will never have any sort of legitimate value. I just like them. They're a good analogy to the miniscule shoes. If Kill wants to come in here and razz me about the stupid little trucks, I'll take my punishment.

It's just hard to deny the utility of the flies I have collected when they spend so much time in the water catching fish.

Surreal

Is he really cute and can he dance? Because I have room in my life for a kept man.

.....

Seriously, for every gold-digging bitch who walks with the goodies, there is a scum-sucking guy who dumps his first wife & kids for a trophy wife.

Surreal

I was chuckling as I read that thread because if we could actually come up with sweeping answers, we knock slews of psychologists out of work and wipe out a substantial part of the self-help aisle at the book store, to say nothing of divorce lawyers.

I'm with Sooz on there being all kinds of answers. I know I sure don't have an answer past what I like myself - and considering my track record I should flee dating guys and go back to dating women. Those were the easy relationships (internally).

I also identify with what Beebo said about erotic roles vs. general relationship/world roles. My first girlfriend used to say I was "butch in the sheets and fem in the streets."

Nephilaine Protagonist

Oh yes. Augustus McRae. Absolutely.
Interesting discussion. Don't have much to add except this: There is a difference between being dominated, and having a protector. But there is also a very fine (and blurry) line between having a protector, and having a possessor.

I wonder sometimes if biology and culture are working against each other here, if culture evolves much faster than biology, giving romantic conflict the bitter tang of cognitive dissonance.

It is confusing, and enough to make one put on a habit and take the order.

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Ivory Upshaw

I think it's important to remember that Twilight was written by a woman who is LDS. Her entire religion is based upon the concept that the man is the "Head of the Household" and the decision maker of said Household.

While I enjoyed the story, it has LDS themes throughout, such as eternal life with the right partner, abstinence and the dominant male as priesthood.

Galen McGinnis

I actually have that in writing. She was pretty drunk at the time though.

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Ok now I ain't so dirty any more. What do you mean showering is an Adult activity. Oh hell did I rez in Braunworth again?

Serene S.

I work with someone just like this. Only, she knows her husband is abusive, she knows he probably needs professional help. But, she refuses to leave him, although she's been offered help from many people. Just had to say I completely agree with your post.

Surreal

Answering this question honestly, though - I want a guy who is at least as intelligent as I am and frankly, I'd be thrilled if they were more intelligent.

In my experience, guys don't like women who are smarter than them - they may say they do, but I think they're big fat liars. It always seems like a dominance issue when it comes up.

Long conversations by the fireplace aside, I want a smart guy because I don't want to have to negotiate important life decisions with someone who believes dumb shit and lacks the ability to reason.

Vivianne Draper

I think different PEOPLE look for different things in a mate. And I think PEOPLE look for different things at different times. During the day maybe what a person wants is someone nice and caring but in the sack someone dominant and controlling -- or vice versa. I don't know many people who look for all the same stuff all the time.

In the RL BDSM world -- at least the one I am familiar with -- the submissive females I know are all pretty strong take-charge women when they are not doing nifty things with sex. But then again so are all the dominant females. And of course not everyone is the same and I am speaking in generalities but then again I kind of have to in order to address this.

Many of the dominant men I know are pretty laid back when they aren't doing nifty stuff with sex. Again, not always. And one of the most submissive nice guys I know is also a boxer, studies several brands of martial arts, and is really kind of a warrior type when not doing nifty stuff with sex.

I think there are fantasies and then there is real life and everyone has to poke around to find where they fit in the latter and know that the former is, in fact, fantasy and other than acting out 'scenes' and the like belong in their heads.

Vampire fantasies, control fantasies and the like are very common things. But most folks know they are fantasies.

I wouldn't make too much of a movie. If it wasn't this one, it would be another. I haven't seen it but from reviews I'd say that the appeal has more to do with the romantic presentation than anything else.

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Colette Meiji

Isn't Rapunzel a bit lipstick-y for what women want?

Trout Recreant

I bet she had a whole collection of little bitty shoes.

Surreal

Yeah, I wouldn't date her... all the hair in the drains, hair care products everywhere, probably spends a fortune on mousse.

Beebo Brink

And this is where I take serious issue with your framing of the issue of sexual power dynamics. It conflates sexual response with intellectual decisions, in just the same way that homophobes rail against gays for "choosing a lifestyle."

I came of age at the height of the feminist/lesbian movement, which swept away old steretypes of butch/femme relationships and replaced them with this idealistic relationship of equals both in and out of the bedroom. I swallowed it all hook-line-and-sinker -- because it makes so much rational sense -- and it's only now, some 35 years later, that I'm beginning to see just how much I lost as a result of my listening to what I was thinking rather than what I was feeling.

Sexual response is not a decision.

Culture may influence the patterns of our sexuality, but that molding happens at an early age and can't be erased because our particular pattern is inconvenient or politically unpalatable. I am more deeply moved by the top/bottom sexual dynamic than I am with a more egalatarian quid-pro-quo. It's not that I particularly mind the latter, it just isn't going to fire my blood as quiickly or at all. And yet I'm very drawn to strong women, so it isn't as if the relationship dynamic mirrors the emotional one. Or perhaps it's just that much sweeter when a strong woman yields....

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