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Cindy Claveau · 11-25-2008, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimee Weber

But for what we understand about the Neanderthal, it was likely sentient, used tools, was capable of abstract thought, and it understood death and its own mortality. If we were to create a Neanderthal now, we would be responsible for a being that may very well sit up from the experimenter's bench and ask us why we did what we did, where he could find his fellow Neanderthals, will he ever find a mate, where does HE fit in our society, and why the hell are you sticking that needle in his arm.

Of course, if such a thing were to happen, we would see the rise of the rights organization, "People for Equal Neanderthals In Society"

Also called "P.E.N.I.S."

Beau Perkins · 11-25-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merovigan

And so the question that matters - what rights would you give them then? The same rights as a chimp? If this cloned being was capable of communicating through speech and said "I'd like to leave this lab now, get a hot dog, rent an apartment, maybe in Los Angles, I hear it's nice there" would approve of that?

Sure Mero.

But if it was not as sophisticated as a human being and operated on the level of a lesser intellegent species would you want it living on its own driving a car around.

Neither of us know how intellegent this human like creature would be. We dont even have a reliable science to clone such a thing yet. We have no clue how healthy of a life it can lead.

There are so many questions. To say we can only do this if we grant it the rights of any human is unrealistic. In time you may prove to be right. It would take years of observing and studying behavior though.

Darkley · 11-25-2008, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

* Analysis of a pigmentation gene from the DNA of an individual at El Sidron indicates that at least some Neanderthals had red hair, pale skin and possibly freckles.

."

i believe they bred with homosapiens

oh, and just to put % in contest, we share 35% of our dna with daffodils

Beau Perkins · 11-25-2008, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkley

i believe they bred with homosapiens

oh, and just to put % in contest, we share 35% of our dna with daffodils

Good enough for me. Let the Daffodil vote and have an apartment in Los Angles now.

Aimee Weber · 11-25-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beau Perkins

Good enough for me. Let the Daffodil vote and have an apartment in Los Angles now.

Which is an excellent example as to why genetic similarity to humans should be discarded outright as a determining factor for societal rights. Instead, I think rights should be bestowed based on a creature's understanding of, and willingness to apply themselves to the social contract.

Lucifer Baphomet · 11-25-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimee Weber

Which is an excellent example as to why genetic similarity to humans should be discarded outright as a determining factor for societal rights. Instead, I think rights should be bestowed based on a creature's understanding of, and willingness to apply themselves to the social contract.

By that criteria, a sizeable proportion of humanity don't merit human rights

Briana Dawson · 11-25-2008, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

By that criteria, a sizeable proportion of humanity don't merit human rights

You should start a thread and better qualify that statement.

**Beebo Brink** · 11-25-2008, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beau Perkins

But if it was not as sophisticated as a human being and operated on the level of a lesser intellegent species would you want it living on its own driving a car around.

If intelligence is the determining factor, where do the mentally retarded fit into this scheme?

Aimee Weber · 11-25-2008, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

By that criteria, a sizeable proportion of humanity don't merit human rights

Exactly. People who reject the social contract by, say, hitting others with a lead pipe, will have their right to freedom denied them. If a newly created Neanderthal is found to be possessed with an unquenchable urge to bite people, they likely will never be able to enjoy the same rights as humans.

On the other hand, if they have a desire to work, pay their rent, and live a life respectful towards others, their genetic make-up should not bar them from doing so, no matter how different from humans.

Lucifer Baphomet · 11-25-2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimee Weber

Which is an excellent example as to why genetic similarity to humans should be discarded outright as a determining factor for societal rights. Instead, I think rights should be bestowed based on a creature's understanding of, and willingness to apply themselves to the social contract.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

By that criteria, a sizeable proportion of humanity don't merit human rights

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briana Dawson

You should start a thread and better qualify that statement.

i'll qualify it here.,.

"Willingness to apply themselves smacks of the concept of manifest destiny".

I'd say confer the rights, on the basis of sentience alone.

Charlemagne Allen · 11-25-2008, 05:44 PM

Humans rights are an imperialist scheme used to force states to conform to the American-led Cold War order! I mean, Western states killed millions of people in Africa and China and South America to create imperalist-capitalist states, and then when these unholy beings collapsed after the Second World War, the unholy alliance of the GATT, the WTO, the World Bank, and the veto-power states of the UN come to dictate how they should act. As if they have any moral legitimacy! This is obviously a blatant attempt to ressert their power over the free states of the third world, and we will not stand for the Neo-Imperialist, Friedmen-esque unholy alliance of US-funded torture cells and corporate takeover!

/me goes back to smoking a joint and reading dog-earred copy of Franz Fanon

Briana Dawson · 11-25-2008, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

i'll qualify it here.,.

"Willingness to apply themselves smacks of the concept of manifest destiny".

I'd say confer the rights, on the basis of sentience alone.

And you almost made a post without a typo. This could have been a typo free day for you!

Lucifer Baphomet · 11-25-2008, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimee Weber

Exactly. People who reject the social contract by, say, hitting others with a lead pipe, will have their right to freedom denied them. If a newly created Neanderthal is found to be possessed with an unquenchable urge to bite people, they likely will never be able to enjoy the same rights as humans.

On the other hand, if they have a desire to work, pay their rent, and live a life respectful towards others, their genetic make-up should not bar them from doing so, no matter how different from humans.

Granted, Aimee, but the social contracts of "superior" cultures have long been used to abrogate the rights of other peoples.

Tribes in the rain forests of Brazil have no interest in paying rent, are they less than human?

And jesus I've known a fuckton of squatters.. again, are they less than human in some way?

Briana Dawson · 11-25-2008, 05:49 PM

Eirik · 11-25-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

Tribes in the rain forests of Brazil have no interest in paying rent, are they less than human?

They adhere to the social contract of their own culture. As such I believe they should be left alone by the rest of us. Sadly, that doens't always happen in reality.

Quote:

And jesus I've known a fuckton of squatters.. again, are they less than human in some way?

I heard that you can live in the Amazon without paying rent. Over here we have a different social contract though.

Not saying they are less human, but they are criminals and should be treated as such.

--

And for the record, I don't think we should raise the neanderthals back to life, unless we can give them a piece of land that is all theirs to do with as they want.

Aimee Weber · 11-25-2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

Granted, Aimee, but the social contracts of "superior" cultures have long been used to abrogate the rights of other peoples.

Tribes in the rain forests of Brazil have no interest in paying rent, are they less than human?

And jesus I've known a fuckton of squatters.. again, are they less than human in some way?

First, your implication that I am describing people as "less than human" is exactly opposite of what I have been saying in every single post. You couldn't have gotten my words more wrong if you simply reversed all the letters.

As for paying rent, I was going with Beau's example of an apartment in LA. If a Brazilian has no interest in paying rent in LA, they don't have a right to that prime piece of real estate. Western civilization invading and seizing Brazilian lands is a different story. That would certainly be wrong.

As for squatters ... I can only speak for my own land. If somebody were squatting on my land, and I didn't want them there, I would indeed ask them to leave.

Where you are getting the "less than human" stuff I have no idea.

Lucifer Baphomet · 11-25-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daman

They adhere to the social contract of their own culture. As such I believe they should be left alone by the rest of us. Sadly, that doens't always happen in reality.

Agreed.... but this opens the question, what standards to we hold another sentient being to.

Ok, the neanderthals aren't a case in point here, because most likely theyd be raised in a controlled environment, and carefully enculturated.

Aimees hypothetical squidmans social contract could be entirely alien to our own. But I'd say he still deserves the right to be treated as hav ing "human" rights. (maybe we should say Sophont's rights

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daman

T
I heard that you can live in the Amazon without paying rent. Over here we have a different social contract though.

Not saying they are less human, but they are criminals and should be treated as such..

In England and Wales, squatters have rigfhts, and aren't stricly speaking criminals in every circumstance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daman

And for the record, I don't think we should raise the neanderthals back to life, unless we can give them a piece of land that is all theirs to do with as they want.

They'd have no cultural frame of reference, assuming they were recreated.

They'd most likely imprint from, and identify with whatever culture they wewre recreated in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimee Weber

First, your implication that I am describing people as "less than human" is exactly opposite of what I have been saying in every single post. You couldn't have gotten my words more wrong if you simply reversed all the letters.

As for paying rent, I was going with Beau's example of an apartment in LA. If a Brazilian has no interest in paying rent in LA, they don't have a right to that prime piece of real estate. Western civilization invading and seizing Brazilian lands is a different story. That would certainly be wrong.

As for squatters ... I can only speak for my own land. If somebody were squatting on my land, and I didn't want them there, I would indeed ask them to leave.

Where you are getting the "less than human" stuff I have no idea.

OK Aimee, sorry for the less than human stuff.... hang over from lengthy debates with Beau on this outside the fora

But still, moving the idea of rights for thinking sentient beings....

I think the idea of using our own social contract on a wider basis, regarding sentient life, has sdinister undertones, and is grossly open to misuse.

Just look at the way we ( white people like you and I Aimee) treated the aboriginal peoples when we colonised other places.

The Native Americans, and Australian Aborigines didnt want involved in our social contracts.. so we ran roughshod over them, stole their land, decimated their numbers, and almost wiped out their cultures.

Briar Bing · 11-25-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

Aimees hypothetical squidmans social contract could be entirely alien to our own. But I'd say he still deserves the right to be treated as hav ing "human" rights. (maybe we should say Sophont's rights

HYPOTHETICAL?

io Kukulcan · 11-25-2008, 06:59 PM

Upon further reflection on this matter, I bet a Neanderthal woman would be really fun in bed.
I'm all for this.

Sooz Pascale · 11-25-2008, 06:59 PM

I think this is a can of worms left unopened. Think about this. One of the more common criticisms of LL's management of SL is their tendancy to get a brainstorm and just run with it, without first sitting back and imagining, pondering what unintended consequences may result.

I see this issue as frought with unintended consequences.

Like what you may ask? For one, exploitation of them. Someone, somewhere will figure out a way to exploit them. We have no idea how they would adapt to our modern world.

I may be alone here, but I think we should leave them be.

Sooz

Beau Perkins · 11-25-2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beebo Brink

If intelligence is the determining factor, where do the mentally retarded fit into this scheme?

I don't really want to get into that discussion but I do know that nobody really ever willingly will choose to bring a mentally retarded person into the world.

jauani · 11-25-2008, 07:20 PM

neanderthals are widely considered to be human, just not modern human. i have actually often read of them to be referred to as homo sapien neanderthalis as opposed to the modern human (us) as homo sapien sapien. that would qualify them as a separate human race. we could be genuinely racist against them. i think the return of neanderthals would help people properly channel their sense of "racial" superiority.

Lucifer Baphomet · 11-25-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jauani

neanderthals are widely considered to be human, just not modern human. i have actually often read of them to be referred to as homo sapien neanderthalis as opposed to the modern human (us) as homo sapien sapien. that would qualify them as a separate human race. we could be genuinely racist against them. i think the return of neanderthals would help people properly channel their sense of "racial" superiority.

see J-Wu knows where I'm coming from.

IsaDaft Trollop · 11-25-2008, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by io Kukulcan

Upon further reflection on this matter, I bet a Neanderthal woman would be really fun in bed.
I'm all for this.

Mr. K, sometimes you scare me.

detrius · 11-25-2008, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briar Bing

HYPOTHETICAL?

The squid-people are no match for octopod/human-hybrids!

Edit: Also... 1,000 posts! Woohoo!

11-25-2008, 05:44 PM	#86 (permalink)
Charlemagne Allen Countess of Darkmere Heaven, to keep its beauty, cast them out, but even Hell itself would not receive them for fear the wicked there might glory over them. Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,393 My Mood: SL Join Date: February 2007 Blog Entries: 1	Humans rights are an imperialist scheme used to force states to conform to the American-led Cold War order! I mean, Western states killed millions of people in Africa and China and South America to create imperalist-capitalist states, and then when these unholy beings collapsed after the Second World War, the unholy alliance of the GATT, the WTO, the World Bank, and the veto-power states of the UN come to dictate how they should act. As if they have any moral legitimacy! This is obviously a blatant attempt to ressert their power over the free states of the third world, and we will not stand for the Neo-Imperialist, Friedmen-esque unholy alliance of US-funded torture cells and corporate takeover! /me goes back to smoking a joint and reading dog-earred copy of Franz Fanon __________________ Charlemagne Allen: YOU'RE A RACIST! Charlemagne Allen: I HAVE CHATLOGS! smokergirl Lowenhar: HOMOPHOBE smokergirl Lowenhar: CONTENT THIEF Charlemagne Allen: RELIGION SUCKS DONKEY BALLS! smokergirl Lowenhar: KISS MY ASS YOU CLOSE MINDED HYPOCRIT Charlemagne Allen: YOU WERE AN ESCORT FOR BARN ANIMALS! Charlemagne Allen: ZOMG BIG SIG! Pretty things: http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlemagneallen/

11-25-2008, 06:59 PM	#95 (permalink)
Sooz Pascale Long Distance Sailor Ribald Lewdness Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,723 My Mood: SL Join Date: January 27, 2007	I think this is a can of worms left unopened. Think about this. One of the more common criticisms of LL's management of SL is their tendancy to get a brainstorm and just run with it, without first sitting back and imagining, pondering what unintended consequences may result. I see this issue as frought with unintended consequences. Like what you may ask? For one, exploitation of them. Someone, somewhere will figure out a way to exploit them. We have no idea how they would adapt to our modern world. I may be alone here, but I think we should leave them be. Sooz __________________ Nothing sickens me more than the closed door of a library - Barbara Tuchman

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11-25-2008, 05:49 PM	#89 (permalink)
Briana Dawson Banned Loved by printesa Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Springfield, Illinois Posts: 3,981 My Mood: SL Join Date: September 23, 2003 Business: N&B Exports Awards: 1

11-25-2008, 06:59 PM	#94 (permalink)
io Kukulcan Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: the wasatch front Posts: 2,040 My Mood: SL Join Date: 04/2006	Upon further reflection on this matter, I bet a Neanderthal woman would be really fun in bed. I'm all for this.

11-25-2008, 07:20 PM	#97 (permalink)
jauani Banned there's an app for that Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: canada Posts: 1,457 My Mood: Chicken_Fling Champion! Blocks Champion! SL Join Date: 2003-04-01	neanderthals are widely considered to be human, just not modern human. i have actually often read of them to be referred to as homo sapien neanderthalis as opposed to the modern human (us) as homo sapien sapien. that would qualify them as a separate human race. we could be genuinely racist against them. i think the return of neanderthals would help people properly channel their sense of "racial" superiority.

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