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Cindy Claveau · 10-10-2008, 09:21 AM

I'm about fed up with trying to answer her - I finally convinced her to stop sending me the stupid joke spam, but now she's so irate over Obama and swallows whatever she hears about him from her usual sources that she just refuses to shut up. She knows I'm not technically a Democrat (nor a Repub) so she probably thinks I'm a 'swing' vote and it's her civic duty to recruit me or something.

She refuses to answer my questions about the Keating 5 or Palin's AIP stuff. Instead, here's a sample of what I get.

I need your help. I won't call my sister names or belittle her, although I've made her mad a few times by calling her emails stupid

I've read up on the Rezko stuff, and frankly I think it's mostly just the conservative spin machine looking for something to scream about. And I'm not sure what's so important about how Obama paid for his college trip to Pakistan, but it'd be nice to have some information beyond what I could grab from a quick Google.

Here's the email. It's a forward from someone else who is feeding her most of this disinformation. Please ignore the disconnect between "why hasn't the mainstream news covered this" and the fact that she found some of her info on Wikipedia

I could use some help please. I love her to death but she needs to understand that there is usually more to a story than what you can find on the internet.

Quote:

Some of you receiving this email may be VERY unhappy that I have forwarded it to you; however, I have asked the same question presented here and I have heard the following information but had never taken time to follow up on where it came from. I am sending this email because we all need to be informed and then make our decision on who to vote for. Please just take the time to read the FACTS set forth below and don't hold it against me that you are on the receiving end of this.

(First red flag: anyone sending me "facts" better have some facts instead of questions)

Quote:

A mother of four in Florida found this information out but none of our major media outlets can come to these same conclusions.

(laughing at that one)

Quote:

But for at least a year now I have been asking where Obama has gotten all his money having come from such a poor background. Thought provoking at any rate.

Quote:

About six months ago, I started thinking 'where did the money come from for Obama'. I have four daughters who went to college, and we were middle class, and money was tight. We (including my girls) worked hard and there were lots of student loans.

I started looking into Obama's life. Around 1979, Obama started college at Occidental in California . He is very open about his two years at Occidental, he tried all kinds of drugs and was wasting his time but, even though he had a brilliant mind, did not apply himself to his studies. 'Barry' (that was the name he used all his life) during this time had two roommates, Muhammad Hasan Chandoo and Wahid Hamid, both from Pakistan . During the summer of 1981, after his second year in college, he made a 'round the world' trip. Stopping to see his mother in Indonesia , next Hyderabad in India , three weeks in Karachi , Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family, then off to Africa to visit his father's family. My question - Where did he get the money for this trip? Neither I, nor any one of my children would have had money for a trip like this when they where in college. When he came back he started school at Columbia University in New York . It is at this time he wants everyone to call him Barack - not Barry. Do you know what the tuition is at Columbia ? It's not cheap! to say the least.

Where did he get money for tuition? Student Loans? Maybe.

Followed by part of the Rezko story - her facts there seem to be pretty accurate though incomplete, but of course her implication is that the whole thing makes Obama a criminal without actually coming out and saying it.

Now for the thinly veiled terrorist implications. I don't know how else to take this next part:

Quote:

Now, we have Obama running for President. Valerie Jarrett, was Michele Obama's boss. She is now Obama's chief advisor and he does not make any major decisions without talking to her first. Where was Jarrett born? Ready for this? Shiraz , Iran ! Do we see a pattern here? Or am I going crazy?

(That ship has sailed)

Quote:

And the final bit of news. On September 7, 2008, The Washington Times posted a verbal slip that was made on 'This Week' with George Stephanapoulos. Obama on talking about his religion said, 'My Muslim faith'. When questioned, 'he make a mistake'. Some mistake!

I wish I had a 'groan' button in my email. Honestly, is it any wonder the rightwing fearmonger tactics work so well with some people?

Quote:

All of the above information I got on line. If you would like to check it - Wikipedia, encyclopedia, Barack Obama; Tony Rezko; Valerie Jarrett: Daily Times - Obama visited Pakistan in 1981; The Washington Times - September 7, 2008; The Times May 10, 2008.

(Wait, I thought mainstream news hadn't touched any of this?

)

I'm formulating my response, but I want it to be non-confrontive yet factual. And I want to take her forwarded email apart point by point with deadly precision -- more so because I hate it when the truth is distorted than because I'm in the tank for Obama. I'd probably feel the same way if she was spreading insinuations about McCain, but she'd never do that because of her political loyalties.

Help?

Max Herzog · 10-10-2008, 09:29 AM

Perhaps you could put her in touch with Rebecca Proudhon?

Your sister would be out canvassing for Obama within hours...

FlipperPA Peregrine · 10-10-2008, 09:36 AM

We all know Obama isn't Muslim, but regardless...

I don't get this whole "zOMG he's a Muslim!" I look forward to the day when religious affiliation doesn't matter. I'd rather have a non-extremist Muslim in office over a total zealot like Palin any day of the week.

Don't people realize that 99.999% of Muslims are just normal folks, who want a better future for their children, peace on earth, and so forth? Just like 99.999% of the Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc out there.

Regards,

-Flip

FlipperPA Peregrine · 10-10-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Herzog

Perhaps you could put her in touch with Rebecca Proudhon?

Your sister would be out canvassing for Obama within hours...

That actually isn't a bad idea. Showing someone just how crazy and tinfoil-hat they look like from a third person perspective is sometimes a wake up call.

Max Herzog · 10-10-2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlipperPA Peregrine

That actually isn't a bad idea. Showing someone just how crazy and tinfoil-hat they look like from a third person perspective is sometimes a wake up call.

Precisely - although there is a small risk that the plan could backfire.

Mind you, in months of trying, Ms Proudhon has failed to persuade frequenters of the LL Forums that WoW is the centre of the universe and the only hope for mankind and that those kool-aid drinkers who are stupid enough to frequent SL are disgusting perverts and moral criminals. All she has done here is raise the nutjob bar a notch or two. Madder than a sack of weasels.

On second thoughts, Cindy, don't run that risk if you care for your sister. Frothing at the mouth isn't a good look for a sibling.

Richie Waves · 10-10-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Herzog

Madder than a sack of weasels.

Dancien Graves · 10-10-2008, 09:53 AM

Lianne Marten · 10-10-2008, 10:02 AM

I saw a very good rebuttal to this same email on another forum I frequent. I don't want to steal the guy's words, so here's a link to it.

Tyche Shepherd · 10-10-2008, 10:03 AM

Obama was on a student loan which he finally paid off with the royalties from his books Michelle Obama: Barack's Book Sales Paid Off Our Student Loans - FOXNews.com Elections

I took a gap year in 1980 - a year before Obama travelled , and looked at round the world travel IIRC 5 or 6 stop tickets were available for £500 to £600 - (about $1000-1500 ) - not cheap with low income but I knew several who did manage it by saving - I didn't do it myself , ending up working for the year instead. All the countries mentioned would have been extremely cheap to travel or live in in 1981 even if you were not staying with family and friends like Obama was.

Surreal Farber · 10-10-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Herzog

Madder than a sack of weasels.

NukeMom · 10-10-2008, 10:08 AM

snopes.com: Where Did Obama's Money Come From?

Cindy Claveau · 10-10-2008, 10:10 AM

I'm working on this but it's a slow process. I won't bore you with everything I said, but it turns out that Obama's mother wasn't exactly impoverished. So explaining his trip to Pakistan is pretty trivial.

I've decided that the subtle insinuation in the email that Obama's Middle Eastern connections disqualify him for the Presidency is nothing more than closet racism. I have very little use for that kind of yokelism (my new word today, which describes some of the people around here that I have to deal with).

Here's the relevant excerpt from my reply:

Quote:

One of the problems with American politics today is the need we seem to have to destroy a candidate's character rather than engage them on issues. It's gotten bad enough that the McCain campaign right now has taken up the chant questioning whether Obama is a Muslim, implying he's a terrorist, dragging out his tenuous association with William Ayers and so forth. It's all a case of using trivial details to paint a bigger picture without ever actually coming out and making a direct accusation that can be rebutted. It's smear politics and fear-mongering, in my mind, and I don't think it raises the level of political discourse in this country a bit.

I have a list of red flags I look for whenever I read someone's forwarded political email. Red flag #1 is usually the admonition, "Check this out!" or "You MUST read this and pass it on!" As if we weren't capable of deciding for ourselves whether to check it out and pass it on.

Red Flag #2 is what I call "cognitive disconnects" - in this case, claiming that a mother of four found this information but no major media outlets have touched it when she ends by citing Wikipedia, Washington Times and the Times Online. I wouldn't call Wiki "major media" necessarily (it's a communal information database anyone can edit), and the Washington Times is owned by the Moonies but still considered a moderate conservative news outlet. Times Online is a British news organization and usually pretty solid. Every news source has its own bias, of course, some more subtle than others. But still, she claims "no major media" and then cites at least 2 major media sources. For someone demanding we read her "facts" she appears to have a loose grasp of the definition of "fact".

However, I did 2 minutes worth of Googling and found references to Obama's Pakistan trip on MSNBC, ABC news, an op-ed piece on Politico.com (excellent, reasonably unbiased political website) and a reference on Bloomberg noting that his mother was an exceptionally smart woman who worked for the Agricultural Development Bank of Pakistan and the People's Bank of Indonesia. The image in this email that she was impoverished is not really true. Obama's father also had a PhD in economics from Harvard.

Red flag #3 applies more to this year's election than anything else. The email is very careful not to use the word "terrorist", but I can't help but get the feeling whenever she refers to Obama's Pakistani college roomates and Michelle's boss being from Iran ("Do we see a pattern here?") that there is an underlying implication that Muslims, or people of Middle Eastern origins, cannot be trusted. They're all terrorists. But coming out and saying so would be too blatant. To me, this is the 9/11 meme trying to become reborn. Ignoring for a moment the fact that Obama attended a Christian church for the last 20 years (his pastor's nuttiness notwithstanding), have we become such a paranoid people that anyone with a turban and dark skin is a threat to our security?

I'm holding off on hitting "Send" right now until I think this over a little more and hear what you guys have to say. I don't need you to write the email for me, I can manage that, but I want to be sure I haven't left out any facts that will help to persuade her that "Truth" usually doesn't come with the subject line "CHECK THIS OUT!"

Surreal Farber · 10-10-2008, 10:12 AM

Cindy,

I could be totally talking out my ass here, but aren't the e-mails a symptom of either a problem with critical thinking or fear?

You might get further coming sideways at the root issue than dealing with the symptoms.

Surreal Farber · 10-10-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

I'm holding off on hitting "Send" right now until I think this over a little more and hear what you guys have to say. I don't need you to write the email for me, I can manage that, but I want to be sure I haven't left out any facts that will help to persuade her that "Truth" usually doesn't come with the subject line "CHECK THIS OUT!"

Looks good to me.

Jessica Robertson · 10-10-2008, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Madder than a sack of weasels.

hahahahah! can I borrow this ?? I love it!

Max Herzog · 10-10-2008, 10:22 AM

I think that looks great, Cindy. I would be struggling to avoid overtly emotional response, if I were in your shoes. Nice work.

Max Herzog · 10-10-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessica Robertson

hahahahah! can I borrow this ?? I love it!

You can, but I only have it on loan from Blackadder

Cindy Claveau · 10-10-2008, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lianne Marten

I saw a very good rebuttal to this same email on another forum I frequent. I don't want to steal the guy's words, so here's a link to it.

Excellent read, thank you Lianne. I'm including that link in my email. Now I'm sorry I spent the last hour doing Googles. Someone already did it for me

Malachi · 10-10-2008, 10:33 AM

I had a long drive last night so turned on a local AM talk radio station. I live in a "top ten" consolidated metropolitan statistical area which votes consistently "purple" with the city usually pushing the entire county electorally Democratic but surrounded by counties that are consistently low-income Republican. One might fairly call it an area where people cling to

10-10-2008, 09:29 AM	#2 (permalink)
Max Herzog Splendid Change down, man Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 240 SL Join Date: 7 July 2006 My Mood:	Perhaps you could put her in touch with Rebecca Proudhon? Your sister would be out canvassing for Obama within hours... __________________ I do not like your tone. It has an ephemeral, whinging aspect. One man's Flickr obsession

10-10-2008, 09:36 AM	#3 (permalink)
FlipperPA Peregrine Evil Incarnate! Recursion is beautiful! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 5,260 SL Join Date: 2003-11-14 Business: Peregrine Salon SLShopper Ads: 1 My Mood:	We all know Obama isn't Muslim, but regardless... I don't get this whole "zOMG he's a Muslim!" I look forward to the day when religious affiliation doesn't matter. I'd rather have a non-extremist Muslim in office over a total zealot like Palin any day of the week. Don't people realize that 99.999% of Muslims are just normal folks, who want a better future for their children, peace on earth, and so forth? Just like 99.999% of the Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc out there. Regards, -Flip __________________ Peregrine Salon: Flip & Jenn's thang.

10-10-2008, 09:53 AM	#7 (permalink)
Dancien Graves No Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Fort Worth, Texas Posts: 5,203 SL Join Date: 12/2006 Business: Graves-Tek/Club Baby Seals Blog Entries: 1 SLShopper Ads: 1 My Mood: Awards: 1	__________________ BRUTAL

10-10-2008, 10:02 AM	#8 (permalink)
Lianne Marten Cheese Baron It's a brand new day, the sun is high. Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: All the birds are singing that you're gonna die. Posts: 864 SL Join Date: 5/6/2004 My Mood:	I saw a very good rebuttal to this same email on another forum I frequent. I don't want to steal the guy's words, so here's a link to it. __________________ I hope that whoever you are, you escape this place. I hope that the world turns and that things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that even though I do not know you, even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you... I love you. With all my heart, I love you. -Valerie

10-10-2008, 10:03 AM	#9 (permalink)
Tyche Shepherd Fortuna vitrea est Goats ?.. fuck'em .. Let them milk themselves Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Posts: 4,039 SL Join Date: 26th April 2007 My Mood:	Obama was on a student loan which he finally paid off with the royalties from his books Michelle Obama: Barack's Book Sales Paid Off Our Student Loans - FOXNews.com Elections I took a gap year in 1980 - a year before Obama travelled , and looked at round the world travel IIRC 5 or 6 stop tickets were available for £500 to £600 - (about $1000-1500 ) - not cheap with low income but I knew several who did manage it by saving - I didn't do it myself , ending up working for the year instead. All the countries mentioned would have been extremely cheap to travel or live in in 1981 even if you were not staying with family and friends like Obama was. __________________ Vanguard of the LolCatz Revolution This Post was financed by The National LolCatz Archives Clancy Sullivan :Yeah. YEAH! The sultry seamstress of mirth is definitely in charge now. Certified 7.8 on the Official Non-Arbitrary Trout Algorithmic Slut scale

10-10-2008, 10:08 AM	#11 (permalink)
NukeMom Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 32	snopes.com: Where Did Obama's Money Come From?

10-10-2008, 10:12 AM	#13 (permalink)
Surreal Farber Treacherous BiSexual Doesn't Suffer Fools Gladly Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,289 SLShopper Ads: 6 My Mood:	Cindy, I could be totally talking out my ass here, but aren't the e-mails a symptom of either a problem with critical thinking or fear? You might get further coming sideways at the root issue than dealing with the symptoms.

10-10-2008, 10:22 AM	#16 (permalink)
Max Herzog Splendid Change down, man Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 240 SL Join Date: 7 July 2006 My Mood:	I think that looks great, Cindy. I would be struggling to avoid overtly emotional response, if I were in your shoes. Nice work.

10-10-2008, 10:33 AM	#19 (permalink)
Malachi the bathwater & the baby fish are inherently sarcastic Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,471	I had a long drive last night so turned on a local AM talk radio station. I live in a "top ten" consolidated metropolitan statistical area which votes consistently "purple" with the city usually pushing the entire county electorally Democratic but surrounded by counties that are consistently low-income Republican. One might fairly call it an area where people cling to