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Serenity

Okay well, I've got another thread for ignore.

You think that becoming a teacher in the first place was easy? You think that the qualifications for being a good teacher are the same as scrubbing toilets? What planet are you living on?

4 years (minimum) of undergrad.
6 months to a year of UNPAID internship.
Required: 2 years of a masters degree within your first 10 years of service, done while working full time.
Continuing education throughout the carreer to be current.

On top of that we're the bad guys in every scenario from why the US is falling behind (those teachers can't teach) to why kids are so medicated for ADD (those teachers can't handle energetic kids) to why test scores aren't rising fast enough (those teachers just won't do the extra stuff).

I have nearly twice the post-highschool education as my father did, and I will never see the income he did when retired. On top of it my retirement will never be half as comfortable as his. Of all my friends from HS, who all found jobs in Computers, Engineering, and related (we were nerds), I make by far the least of them, generally around HALF of what they do.

As for taxing Sio, you come work in a modern public highschool. You manage classes of 30-35 teenagers, dealing with their parents, hostile school boards desperate to get test scores up, and then come home to your family. Yeah, it might not have the physical demands, but it's exhausting in it's own way.

Seriously. Unless one of you has done it, shut up.

As for the rest.... think what you like of what I've said. Nothing new around here to reading in your own subtext to someone else's text.

Serenity

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Siobhan OFlynn

This is no more than what we've come to expect of you. If we don't agree, you tell us to shut up.

If we had universal health care, we would be free to follow our dreams, instead of dragging ourselves through our lives, wishing things were different.

I'd love to open a restaurant with my husband, a chef. But we need health insurance. So we stay at our crappy jobs and will probably never realize our dream.

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Circle Widdershins

Hooollyyy sheeeeaaaaat. That is a HUGE amount of money for Medical Insurance. I had no idea! What are they expecting you to be needing in terms of health care? Is that reflective of the cost of US health care in general? Or more reflective of Insurance company and Drug company profit margins?

In no way do I want to derail this into another debate about level of care in different countries. The simple reason I am so shocked is because I am currently moaning about how I'll have to pay $200 a month for private Medical Insurance (not via a work scheme - just between me and the Insurer) to cover me and my child for the stuff that the Australian govt won't cover. And we thought OUR Insurance companies were propped up by government decisions.

Sheeesh.

/me goes back to reading the rest of the thread now.

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Joy Honey

You fucking slacker! You're *only* a nurse and a mom. Get on the damn ball and open your restaurant.

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Siobhan OFlynn

I have a theory about why we don't have universal health care and never will.

Because it's the way corporate America keeps us in our place. If we didn't *have* to stay at our jobs for the health insurance, how many of us would tell our supervisors to fuck off and quit? I know I would. I'd work for myself if I could. And so would quite a few Americans. They'd have to pay us much more than they are to stay at their companies, because we'd no longer be slaves to health benefits.

/me frantically searches for her tinfoil hat.

CaleVinson

I probably deserve to be flamed by both sides for poking my nose in here, but anyway ....

The "relative worth" debate of a teacher versus any other job, is, IMHO, an unwelcome distraction, and in fact lets Serenity "off the hook", and provides, in her own mind, further evidence of the unreasonable bias of SLU.

I would have thought the key issue, and the one that we want to keep bringing back to the Serenitys and Gigs of this world is the simple one that follows. We have a wide range of jobs that, as people have pointed out, *need* to be done, but are not highly regarded. (In some regions, they may also be the only jobs available to certain groups.) It seems manifestly unfair to me for a society to ask these jobs to be done, knowing that, in the current setup, those doing those jobs will not be able to afford decent medical care.

Access to medical care is not an Xbox, or a night out at the movies.

Brenda Archer

Plus I'm waiting for the public health catastrophe when something communicable and chronic starts to spread through the population, and the uninsured pass it around instead of getting treated. Bonus points if the treatment is expensive enough that a working class person can ONLY afford to be treated if they have very good insurance.

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Colette Meiji

Ahhh I see, so you are better than them.

The one where you are no more human than those who scrub toilets for a living.

Does that unskilled person who works harder than you not deserve healthcare?

Should someone with no skills make as much as you? No.

Do they deserve your consideration? Yes.

You bitching about your cushy job is laughable.

Charlemagne Allen

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Serenity

But it's how things work here, Cale. Accept it.

Let me point at what I said:

They simply are not. Becoming a teacher requires a great deal of work and self sacrifice. Just as ANY professional occupation does. Just as Nursing does. Just as Lawyering does. Do I think for a second I could step in Sioban's shoes? No. And I hope she's not arrogant enough to think mine are that easy to fill either.

But here's Colette's response:

And then after referencing my question about what planet she's on she says:
Where did I say I was a better person? Where did I even SUGGEST I was a better person?

But, it's fundamentally easier to dismiss someone if you think them subhuman, and that's what's happened here. I'm an arrogant bitch who thinks so highly of herself that she stares down her nose at all those "lesser" people. And that's what always happens in these things.

Or things are taken out of context to create wonderful sound bites:
It's rare that I ever say "shut up". In fact in this case I think anyone here is justified saying that when people who are ignorant about what a given job, profession, work situation is like start spouting of like experts on it. What kind of reception would you give me if I said that the problem with America is that Nurses have it too easy? Or start going off on how easy it is to be a Nurse and that it's no harder than digging ditches?


The problem here is that there are two ideas that get mixed up and the bigger picture gets lost. Health care, and returned rewards for effort.

I get my panties in a knot because I do not feel that teaching is nearly as rewarded for the education, the work, and the investment it requires compared to other white collar jobs. Sure I have great medical coverage. That's nothing to laugh at. But at the same time I am in one of the lowest paid professions for my investment in my own education.

The other issue is health care. And as long as we tie profession to health care we are going to have this "problem". There are people who are going to be bricklayers, and bouncers, and house keepers. That's just where they're going to end up. They will never be able to afford "good" health care coverage so there are only so many options:
1) They find a better job.
2) We make health care more affordable.
3) We give them health care.

I work with kids every day that are smart, clever, and capable. And I've seen far far too many say "I'm just going to work at my dad's machine shop" or "I want to be a poet; I don't need to learn this stuff", and watch them wander out of the school oblivious to the realties coming.

And I'm sad for them. For one I worry that they'll never BE happy because they know they had the potential to be something "more" and I fear that they'll come to resent where they ended up only after it's too late to do something about it. The "I could have been a doctor if only...." that starts to creep in once they've got their small family going and bigger responibilities start to hit them.

For another I feel bad that potential is wasted. Not everyone has what it takes to be a Doctor, just as not everyone has what it takes to be a Pro Athelete. It takes something more. It takes something different. It takes a mindset, a talet set, a type of thinking that not everyone has. And it makes me feel a little bad. Think of how much darker our lives would be with Einstien had never pushed out of his patent office, or if FDR had remained in law rather than entering politics.

I'm not saying that it takes a better person to be a doctor (though I'm sure in no time someone will say that I am). But for some people it's just easier; they've got that talent, that SPARK to really be great at it.

I don't think I'm a better human being for my vocation, and that is how I see it. It's not my job, it's not my carreer, it is my calling. I do think I've worked hard to get where I am, and, yes, I think I deserve a few perks to go with it.

And it's easy to categoraize the upper middle class and the rich as being heartless. They feel they've earned their "toys" and how dare they lord these over everyone else. If the rich only knew how the rest of the world lives they would give up their country clubs and their fancy entertainment centers and think of their gardeners as their equals. And I think this is one big pile of steaming liberal bullshit.

If we want to talk about health care, then take Cale's advice and get your eyes on the ball: Who should be covered?

And I've said one and I'll say it again: Everyone.

How? Through their jobs first, through themsevles second, and as a measure of absolute last resort the public if nessecary.

I don't have all the answers and it DOES rub me the wrong way to see a student talk about wanting to have a higher minimum wage and social medicine so he can pursue his dream to be a snowboarder. He's a bright kid that really can do so many good things beyond the slopes and I'd hate to see our society turn into one where Doctoring, Lawyering, Teaching, Accounting, all start to fade out because it's just more 'fun' for our youth to seek out Bouncing, Snowboarding and Writing Poetry instead.

Serenity

Serenity

Do you really believe you could do it? I mean earnestly?

There are ways to do this. You could get (well maybe with the current credit crunch), a business loan to get started. With you and your husband as employees of the resturant you could get a small business plan for insurance. As long as you managed to start to turn a profit in a few months on the business then you'd be able to start to pay back your start up loan, and if you balance the books right offer some kind of health care to your employees.

It'd be tight, sure, and it might take a few years to get profitable enough to pay back on your start up loans but it can be done and it does happen. It's not easy and would never try to suggest it to anyone that it is. If you're a nurse don't you already have pretty good insurance? Could your husband work up to taking over a resturant that's already established? Or could you stay on there while he gets one started and once it's going you leave your post at the hospital to work with him?

I think that opportunities are there if you've got the talent, the desire, and the skills, but I might just be being an optimist.

Serenity

Darkley

I repeat - I'm thankful for the NHS, where everyone is covered, no matter what they earn, how old they are and even if they are struck down whilst on holiday here..........

Where becoming critically or chronically ill doesnt mean your family goes bankrupt, where you don't have to choose between paying your medical bill or heating your house

Where being a p/t cleaner working hours so you will be home for your children won't be penalised against, working 2 part time jobs doesnt matter....

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Charlemagne Allen

Cold War legacy: US spent money to buy nukes and become the big daddy of NATO, while Europe invested into infrastructure and services for citizens. Good call on Europe's part.

Eboni Khan

Although some might argue, that is the US hadn't taken those steps, Europe would have never been allowed that luxury. Who knows what countries might have been invaded and what wars would have been started.

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Jessica Robertson

Serenity, you have no idea what you are saying here. I'm sure it sounded good and supportive when you were typing it. However, the reality of your suggestions are much different.

For a small business loan, you have to show 3 to 5 years of income from your business. Generally you have to put your house up for colateral against the small business loan.

Have you seen the prices for small business health insurance plans?

Do you have any idea what the inital capital outlay is for a resteraunt beyond the building and property? It's enormous.

I'm not saying it's impossible. However, if your business fails (which an estimated 70-80% do) you could lose your home, all of the assets of the business and everything you've worked for up to that point. Unless you already have the money up front for a business, it's really very risky.

Arilynn

I don't understand the sadness of someone wanting to continue his father's business, whether that be a private equity firm or a machine shop. Nor do I see the sadness in someone wanting to be a poet.

I also don't see how either choice "darkens" society. Our economy is built on small businesses such as family-owned machine shops. And while I don't like poetry, a nation full of professionals and devoid of artists would be bleak.

Why should someone who works, whether it be in a machine shop or in General Motors, be denied affordable health care? On a simple fairness basis, they shouldn't be. But the cost to small, family-owned business is too great. Now in this globalized economy the cost of employer-sponsored health care is becoming too great even for a giant like GM. It is reducing US productivity and competitiveness.
Everyone in the US should have access to affordable health care, regardless of work status. To do this and to take the burden off employers, the link between health care and job status needs to be broken.

Serenity

What does a mechanic do for work when people aren't designing better cars? What good is it to be a poet when there are no doctors? And what happens to the child who dreams of being a poet but honestly doesn't have the talent to make a living at it? Set health care aside and worry about eating food each week.

I just want to see each of my kids push themselves to be the best they can be and never settle for less the best they can achieve. A kid who could be the next Henry Ford chosing instead to not work, not push himself, I think is sad.

Maybe that's just me.

Serenity

Colette Meiji

When you decided to wax with fond hyperbole at how badly