Surreal

I'm still wading thru the YouTube posts of the debate, but so far I'm not impressed with Governor Palin. I think she's a light weight and frankly I'm a bit offended by her folksy, 'just another average American' persona. I never want to hear the potential leader of my country say "dog gonnit."

I did catch her Cheyneyesque desire for the VP to have more authority in dealing with the Senate. Yes, just like what we need is more Executive branch power. I loved Biden's response.

While I was out running errands, I casually asked people I ran across if they watched the debate and who they were debating for. I live in a mostly working class area in a swing state.

Twelve people, pretty evenly divided between men and women, oldest around 60 something, youngest in 20s. 8 Republicans, 2 Independents, 2 Democrats.

9 voting for Obama
2 voting for McCain
1 undecided

Many of the voters were going to vote for the "lesser evil." One former Hilary voter was voting for anyone but McCain.

The one response that really floored me was a middle-aged Italian-looking guy with a strong NJ accent who confided that he just couldn't bring himself to vote for anyone with a middle name of "Hussein."

Bard Jameson

While I agree with many here who say that Palin's performance did not reflect well on women in general, and that the bar had been deliberately set low for her to shine, I think it's worthwhile to consider that what she did was still a boost for their campaign. All that "aw shucks, I'm just one of you" stuff plays well coming from a man - from a woman I think it works even better. She's providing populist appeal that I think will help the ticket, which is, IMO, what she was hired for.

We gathered here see and point to how she avoided questions and fumbled here and there, using her debate-camp techniques like always speaking to the camera instead of the moderator, and we can quite rightly say that she is out of her league.

But as the old saying goes, "it plays well in Peoria". I think that is reflected in the pundit comments in the OP. We shouldn't underestimate how powerful her appeal can turn out to be as the next few weeks play out.

Not saying I like it - just how I see it.

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Eboni Khan

I am betting for the one person willing to admit that bullshit, there are 5 more who feel the same way but won't say it out loud.

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Atia

It played well to her base but that's to be expected. The same can be said of Biden's showing. What we should be looking for it how it played to the undecided.

I would hope the discerning voter would not be taken in by a single performance of canned answers that has very little to do with who and what Palin is really all about.

I didn't detect any ability to respond extemporaniously with any meanful answers. Palin went to generics provided to her by her coaches. Biden called her out only once for not answering the question but it happened repeatedly. But because she did her cheerleading bounce over a bar that had been lowered to her ankles, she made the GOP cream their collective shorts.

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Circe Timtam

You could base a drinking game on her mispronunciation of nuclear during that debate.

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Circe Timtam

I am still trying to figure out why it's historic that she is a VP candidate. This isn't the first time a woman has been a VP candidate.

Bard Jameson

Good point. Let's remember that at least some of the undecided can and wil be swayed by the "Can I call you Joe?" routine. Playing to the base is still important - you don't want to lose what you already have in hand - and some portion of the undecideds will be swayed by her folksy populism. So, as I say, it plays well with some portion of the electorate.

The discerning voter will not be taken in. What percentage of voters do you think are discerning? My figure may be much lower than yours.

Yes, I do believe she caused many a spooge stain among the base. All I'm saying is that there is a percentage of the undecided who will be swayed by her strip tease. I don't know if that will be 51% of them or some other figure. But these folks (in each respective political party apparatus) play this game for a living, and they wouldn't have put her up if they didn't believe she will play to some faction.

She will gain undecideds. The only question is how many.

Sooz Pascale

I wonder if we saw the same debate. I thought she did fairly well. Of course I'm not foaming at the mouth in livid hatred of her either, so my viewpoint is "skewed."

I gave Biden a 7 out of 10 points. He was QUITE impressive. I gave Palin a 5.

More later.. its been a very, very long exhausting day.

The FUNNIEST part of the evening bar none was the long faces and pouty lower lips of the pundits on CNN who were just ready to SHRED her, but had to GRUDGINGLY admit she did fine, even well. I honestly thought one of them was going to cry. It was just so priceless!! You betcha!!

Sooz

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jacqueline trudeau

My guess is very few. Funny how a little thing like a financial meltdown stiffens the average voter's spine about a minor leaguer's qualifications. Especially when that player is on the team that gave you the mess in the first place.

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Arilynn

I can't stand Palin, but I thought she did better than in the interviews with Couric.

But she still has these moments in which she makes no sense:
Or is simply using patriotic, nice-sounding fluff:
Or refused to answer the question:
She wasn't the trainwreck she was in the Couric interviews IMO. But Biden seemed to answer the questions more directly and with more substance. Plus he didn't start with "Hey, can I call you Sarah".

Ingrid

I think if you're a woman in politics you're screwed either way. If you come on strong you're "aggressive" a la Hilary Clinton. If you're not, then you're "cutesy and wimpy" like Palin.

Again, I really wish people would stick to what women say as opposed to how they say it and focusing on how they think a woman in politics "should behave".

Watching this from the sidelines has made me acutely aware of just how far we haven't come when you start to scratch the surface.

Atia

Point taken.


Bard, you know how I vacillate between a harden cynic and at times the most recent incarnation of Pollyanna. But at this particular time in our political history I'm hoping "Joe six-pack" is a bit more aware of the slight-of-hand candidate or political machinations of either party. That said I'm playing the glad game that this blatant and shameless move by the McCain camp will go down in flames.


The McCain folks saw what a juggernaut Obama had become and knew their own candidate was just a boring, old white guy by comparison. Kudos to them for some creative thinking. However, in their haste they failed to vet Palin out enough to see what a loose cannon she is. Just two interviews later and the world views her as a punch line. Then comes the debate, she proves the capacity to memorize the McCain agenda (except the ANWR thing) and we're expected to believe she is anything other than the empty pant suit we saw unscripted with Charlie Gibson or Katie Couric?

Palin's very own beloved Joe Six-Pack and Hockey Mom are going to become much more discerning when they can't afford beer or gas because of home foreclosures, unemployment, lost health insurance and soaring gas prices.

Your turn...

jacqueline trudeau

They should behave like they would in any other serious endeavor.

Winking and other non-professional behavior would get anyone, male or female, bounced out of a job interview where I work.

Trout Recreant

Brief digression, but the reason for this is that soccer is boring to watch, compared with hockey, football, basketball, etc. It's popular as a school sport because anyone can play and it's relatively non-contact. For hockey, you need to be able to skate; for football, you need to be physically aggressive, baseball and basketball are both specialized skill sets. If you want to get your child involved in sports, soccer is a great game. But people don't want to sit for hours watching a game where the final score is 1-1.

All you need for soccer is a ball and a place to play. All the other major sports require an investment in gear. It's popular in a lot of poorer countries for this reason.

On the West Coast, I'd hazard a guess that soccer far outstrips hockey in terms of popularity. I don't know of any schools with a hockey team out here. Hell, I don't even know where the nearest skating rink is.

Bard Jameson

I'm hoping the same. I guess I'm at least 1% more cynical than you and would not be as surprised as you if the campaign wonks were able to turn her into a popular figure with J.S.P. as they have been able to do just recently with The Bush.

Well, even an empty pant suit can have value. I think Peggy Noonan is a tool, but here's part of her take of the debate from the WSJ:

Declarations - WSJ.com

I certainly hope so. But let's also remember that the worst of times for a country economically, socially, politically, are the best of times to throw a lot of patriotic rhetoric around, because frightened people are not known for becoming more discerning, but rather more ready to swallow The Lie.

Shall we continue this elsewhere?

Atia

I think it's exactly for this reason that J.S.P., et al, have become more circumspect. W. has been become a joke and Palin in no more than Bush in drag, FFS.


I've already conceded she whipped the base into a lather. But I'm not so certain if she goes back out on the stump unscripted she can sway or hang on to the independent voter.


Here comes my cynism. Watch for a well-orchestrated October surprise.

You betcha big guy. There's plenty more to discuss. /me readies her tongue

Ingrid

Really? Smilling, nodding and a wink at appropriate moments during an interview, would not be a strike a potential employee if i was interviewing them. I'd rather know I was hiring someone who is a. human b. probably has a sense of humour.

You don't think Clinton ever winked? Ridiculous. Winking is only off limits to her because she's female and people either see it as being flirty or bubble head bimbo behaviour.

Cocoanut Koala

So true. So so true.

Heck, if I'm not mistaken, I've seen her criticized here for looking straight into the camera, and for asking if she could call Biden "Joe," with various complex explanations for how these activities were transparently devious, manipulative, malevolent, and apparently highly meaningful.

Yet -

"The differences were in no small part stylistic and visible with a glance to the stage: a 47-year-old black man who has been in the Senate for nearly four years standing at one lectern, facing a 72-year-old white-haired fixture of the Senate standing across from him. In many ways, Mr. Obama was a very different candidate than he was during the primary battles. He answered questions directly and affirmatively, typically looking right into the camera as he spoke.

"Throughout the debate, Mr. Obama called Mr. McCain by his first name; Mr. McCain did not."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/27/us...atecnd.html?hp

Now the same thing with winking.

What's good enough for the gander isn't good enough for the goose. Assuming, of course, that it's a Democrat gander and a Republican goose.

I mean, that's only fair.

I wish people would actually talk about what was said in the debate, including the factual mistakes they made.

But . . . we can't scratch that surface too deep, now, can we?

coco

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Cristiano

I posted several things in the Another Sarah Palin thread about the issues she raised.

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Serenity

It's all context.

I've seen teachers get offended when an interviewee said "see here's what you gotta do as a teacher" because they felt the subtext was "I'm such a great teacher I'm going to tell all of you people how YOU should do it".

A wink can be a "ha ha, I'm human too!" and it can be "ha ha, I'm creepy!".

Context...

Serenity

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Cocoanut Koala

Well, I haven't looked at that yet.

But I said - the mistakes they made.

coco

jacqueline trudeau

It may be acceptable for the receptionist position. Not the vice-chairman.

Atia

I would have been equally put off had Biden winked. There's no double standard as far as I'm concerned when someone is applying for a job at this level - the behavior was inappropriate IMO.