Logo

Richie Waves · 09-24-2008, 10:05 AM

ROE: if it moves and wears a towel its a target -Black Water command

**Psyke Phaeton** · 09-24-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandoymRandt

Jeezuz christ psyche that video made me sick...(but thanks for posting it)

Any car approaching the convoy is potentially a suicide bomber so all get shot when they get close. That's what private security gets you in a war zone.

Brave Republic · 09-24-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

Americans are not special, not unique.. sorry to burst that bubble on you. History is full of incidents where a military is turned against its own people as iron fisted police force, brutal and murderous, the fact you think Americans are above that makes you seem a bit naive..

naw I'm just chauvanistic and arrogant

RandoymRandt · 09-24-2008, 10:13 AM

You know what this says In Arabic?

"Don't Tailgate"

Brave Republic · 09-24-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivianne Draper

Kent State shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have a unique view on this beyond thinking it was an unfortunate event and a tragedy. I wont get into it too much as I dont want to de-rail this thread.

When that happened I do know that at a certain armory in NY a banner went up that had

Army 4
Kent State 0

black humor but understandable when you have people throwing rocks at your head (which btw can and does kill people), waving the flag of the nation's enemy, and you are just f'n sick and tired of being called a baby killer for the 400th time simply because you choose to serve your country. I am actually amazed more deluded impressionable kids, swayed by communist propaganda didn't meet a similar fate. Oh yeah that's right, because it was an anamoly or aberration and not the SOP by our military in these situations. Things got out of hand and a tragedy occurred. It happens.

Talk about similar tensions- in NI British troops carried real FN rounds in their pockets illegally in case shit met fan. Also the first pattern of rubber bullets had a hollow space in the bullet that conveniently was the same size as a certain deniomination of coin. Many were loaded with coins by the squaddie to pack a bigger wallop. Ever wonder why the rubber bullet guns were nicknamed "dick guns"? Had more to do with where they were aimed then the way they looked.

Anyway best defense in many cases is an extreme and harsh offense.

No GI or squaddie went out in either case with the intention of killing anyone or seriously injuring anyone, but tensions are high and you prepare for the worst. Sometimes things break down and we have checks and balances in place for when that happens too.

Cindy Claveau · 09-24-2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

Americans are not special, not unique.. sorry to burst that bubble on you. History is full of incidents where a military is turned against its own people as iron fisted police force, brutal and murderous, the fact you think Americans are above that makes you seem a bit naive..

Not naive, Richie. Naive would be people who haven't informed themselves on the nature of the American system and the Constitutional linkage between the people and our army.

From Harry Summers' excellent "On Strategy: A Critical Analysis of the Vietnam War":

Quote:

As The Federalist Papers clearly show, the Founding Fathers deliberately rejected the idea of an 18th century-type Army answerable only to the Executive. They wrote into the Constitution specific safeguards to ensure the people's control of the military. These safeguards would ensure civilian control of the military, and, in so doing, guarantee that the United States would not go to war without the initial support of the American people."

Yes, that is unique in history - so appealling that our 18th century design has been copied by just about everybody except Russia and China.

It also points up the problems we had in Vietnam. It points up the problems I personally have with things like the Bush Doctrine (which, to be fair, is merely the Woodrow Wilson/FDR doctrine taken to a new level), Wolfowitz's philosophy of military expansion as adopted by the GOP, the abuse of the 1973 War Powers Act, and the failure of Bush to seriously ponder the effects that a loss of public support would have on his war in Iraq.

Just because those things are happening/have happened doesn't make them the 'norm', they're certainly not in keeping with the way our system was designed, and one major reason I'm voting Obama this year is because I'm hoping he and his party will redress that situation and bring us back closer to keeping the power over the military in the hands of the people through our surrogates, the Congress.

I'm of the belief that we can still effectively fight terrorism without making the President into a military dictator.

War Powers Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Isablan Neva · 09-24-2008, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyke Phaeton

Over time conspiracy theories are becoming more and more mainstream.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
- Hunter S. Thompson

RandoymRandt · 09-24-2008, 11:03 AM

My definition of an expert in any field is a person who knows enough about what's really going on to be scared. P. J. Plauger, Computer Language, March 1983

Lucifer Baphomet · 09-24-2008, 11:15 AM

America would never use its own troops on its own citizens, and no one was shot at Kent State.

Does this post really need irony tags?

**Bard Jameson** · 09-24-2008, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

America would never use its own troops on its own citizens, and no one was shot at Kent State.

Does this post really need irony tags?

No, Luc. People were shot at Kent State, but they deserved it. Many more deserved it, but they beat a hasty retreat once they realized the error of their ways.
</sarcasm>

**Psyke Phaeton** · 09-24-2008, 11:24 AM

Waco Siege - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

**Vivianne Draper** · 09-24-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brave Republic

I have a unique view on this beyond thinking it was an unfortunate event and a tragedy. I wont get into it too much as I dont want to de-rail this thread.

When that happened I do know that at a certain armory in NY a banner went up that had

Army 4
Kent State 0

black humor but understandable when you have people throwing rocks at your head (which btw can and does kill people), waving the flag of the nation's enemy, and you are just f'n sick and tired of being called a baby killer for the 400th time simply because you choose to serve your country. I am actually amazed more deluded impressionable kids, swayed by communist propaganda didn't meet a similar fate. Oh yeah that's right, because it was an anamoly or aberration and not the SOP by our military in these situations. Things got out of hand and a tragedy occurred. It happens.

Talk about similar tensions- in NI British troops carried real FN rounds in their pockets illegally in case shit met fan. Also the first pattern of rubber bullets had a hollow space in the bullet that conveniently was the same size as a certain deniomination of coin. Many were loaded with coins by the squaddie to pack a bigger wallop. Ever wonder why the rubber bullet guns were nicknamed "dick guns"? Had more to do with where they were aimed then the way they looked.

Anyway best defense in many cases is an extreme and harsh offense.

No GI or squaddie went out in either case with the intention of killing anyone or seriously injuring anyone, but tensions are high and you prepare for the worst. Sometimes things break down and we have checks and balances in place for when that happens too.

You said, and I quote:

Quote:

I seriously doubt that an active duty soldier that grew up in New York would shoot his weapon at a national Guardsman from Ohio for no other reason then to suppress the states as part of some new world order. Our GI's would seriously question wtf before they ever acted like that. We are a democracy and our soldiers ask questions--especially when the mission would be here in US

I'm sure the guardsmen who whot a bunch of unarmed students at Kent State didn't go out with the intention of shooting unarmed students. And yet they did. As you said "....tensions are high and you prepare for the worst. Sometiems things break down and we have checks and balanced in place for when that happens too."

Do you seriously think that if we deploy troops domestically that tensions won't be high and things won't break down?

Merovigan · 09-24-2008, 11:26 AM

OMG stop it guys...our government would never do anything against its people, like lie to it in order to get a war going....

SHIT! Now you've got me doing it!!!

RandoymRandt · 09-24-2008, 11:27 AM

Merovigan · 09-24-2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivianne Draper

I'm sure the guardsmen who whot a bunch of unarmed students at Kent State didn't go out with the intention of shooting unarmed students. And yet they did. As you said "....tensions are high and you prepare for the worst. Sometiems things break down and we have checks and balanced in place for when that happens too."

Do you seriously think that if we deploy troops domestically that tensions won't be high and things won't break down?

But, but...those soldiers won't be throwing rocks! I mean, worst case they'll just be aiming amazingly lethal (compared to rocks) weapons at each other and saying "Stand down!" a lot...

How could that go badly?!

**Psyke Phaeton** · 09-24-2008, 11:29 AM

All that is required is to give them the label terrorist.

Cindy Claveau · 09-24-2008, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

America would never use its own troops on its own citizens, and no one was shot at Kent State.

Does this post really need irony tags?

No, but people need to be more complete in their understanding instead of making sweeping stereotypical assumptions about the American constitutional system.

At Kent State, the National Guard was not under orders to shoot anyone. Prior to Gov. Rhodes calling in the Guard (which, by the way, are part-time civilian troops, not crack stormtroopers), police and firemen had been attacked by the protesting student mobs. The Guard was called in to restore order. A Guard unit, I might add, that had NO training in riot control.

This was a case of bumbling local command, a few idiot Guardsmen with loaded guns, and NOT a government-ordered slaughter of innocents.

The subsequent public furor over the shootings included a massive student strike across the nation, a demonstration of over 100,000 in Washington (during which no one was shot), and such general displeasure that what I said before - American people's authority over the military - was eventually reasserted.

From the Scranton Commission report after those shootings:

Quote:

Even if the guardsmen faced danger, it was not a danger that called for lethal force. The 61 shots by 28 guardsmen certainly cannot be justified. Apparently, no order to fire was given, and there was inadequate fire control discipline on Blanket Hill. The Kent State tragedy must mark the last time that, as a matter of course, loaded rifles are issued to guardsmen confronting student demonstrators.

Kent State shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

Eight of the guardsmen were indicted by a grand jury. The guardsmen claimed to have fired in self-defense, which was generally accepted by the criminal justice system. In 1974 U.S. District Judge Frank Battisti dismissed charges against all eight on the basis that the prosecution's case was too weak to warrant a trial.[13]

In May 2007, Alan Canfora, one of the injured protestors, demanded that the case be reopened, having found an audiotape in a Yale University government archive allegedly recording an order to fire ("Right here! Get Set! Point! Fire!") just before the 13 second volley of shots.[15]

Canfora has been on a crusade since discovering the tape, hoping to get authorities to reopen the case and use new technology to perform voice analysis. Larry Shafer, a guardsman who said he fired during the shootings and was one of those charged told the Kent-Ravenna Record Courier newspaper in May 2007:" I never heard any command to fire. That's all I can say on that," Shafer, a Ravenna city councilman and former fire chief, told the newspaper. "That's not to say there may not have been, but with all the racket and noise, I don't know how anyone could have heard anything that day." Shafer also when on to say that "point" would not have been part of a proper command.

So I stand by my point - US troops do not fire on citizens unless it's either a gigantic fuckup or their own lives are in danger. Claiming that the Kent State shootings is some kind of an example of our government shooting at us - or accusing me of irony - is just sadly misinformed.

Merovigan · 09-24-2008, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

No, but foreigners need to be more complete in their ...

Do you pronounce it "Fer'ners?"

Lucifer Baphomet · 09-24-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

No, but foreigners need to be more complete in their understanding instead of making sweeping stereotypical assumptions about the American constitutional system.

At Kent State, the National Guard was not under orders to shoot anyone. Prior to Gov. Rhodes calling in the Guard (which, by the way, are part-time civilian troops, not crack stormtroopers), police and firemen had been attacked by the protesting student mobs. The Guard was called in to restore order. A Guard unit, I might add, that had NO training in riot control.

This was a case of bumbling local command, a few idiot Guardsmen with loaded guns, and NOT a government-ordered slaughter of innocents.

The subsequent public furor over the shootings included a massive student strike across the nation, a demonstration of over 100,000 in Washington (during which no one was shot), and such general displeasure that what I said before - American people's authority over the military - was eventually reasserted.

From the Scranton Commission report after those shootings:

Kent State shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So I stand by my point - US troops do not fire on citizens unless it's either a gigantic fuckup or their own lives are in danger. Claiming that the Kent State shootings is some kind of an example of anything - or accusing me of irony - is just sadly misinformed.

Yup, and the more troops policing the states, leaves more opportunity for "bumbling local command"

No one orders blue on blue incidents either, but they happen.

All you've done with your post is prove that even with good intentions, arrangements like this are pure folly

Merovigan · 09-24-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

So I stand by my point - US troops do not fire on citizens unless it's either a gigantic fuckup or their own lives are in danger. Claiming that the Kent State shootings is some kind of an example of anything - or accusing me of irony - is just sadly misinformed.

Does anything that doesn't back up your point just slide off you? I swear, you're like teflon to dissenting views.

People in uniform have massacred American civilians in the past.

People in uniform have massacred Iraqis in the past (as seen in the video linked below/above).

Now, in fiscal year 2009, the government will begin to use the armed forces, and perhaps its mercenary labor, inside the US even more.

How is this a GOOD thing?

RandoymRandt · 09-24-2008, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Do you pronounce it "Fer'ners?"

(sorry, that was f/n funnay)

**Bard Jameson** · 09-24-2008, 11:37 AM

Sometimes, big things have been kick-started by gigantic fuckups:

Quote:

In the midst of the commotion, Private Hugh Montgomery was struck down onto the ground by a club. When he recovered to his feet, he fired his musket, later admitting to one of his defense attorneys that he had yelled "Damn you, fire!"[7]. It is presumed that Captain Preston would not have told the soldiers to fire, as he was standing in front of the guns, between his men and the crowd of protesters. However, the protesters in the crowd were taunting the soldiers by yelling "Fire". There was a pause of indefinite length; the soldiers then fired into the crowd. Their uneven bursts hit eleven men.

Boston Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mereille · 09-24-2008, 11:37 AM

Well...Kent State does show that placing armed troops in the same place as a disgruntled populace is a good formula for getting people shot.

If Amy Goodman is at all right. People are going to be killed over it. And a US soldier is going to be the one bearing the guilt of actions beyond his control.

Surreal · 09-24-2008, 11:37 AM

Somebody has been watching too much Jericho.

Merovigan · 09-24-2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surreal Farber

Somebody has been watching too much Jericho.

Much like ammo, there's no such thing as too much Jericho.

09-24-2008, 10:05 AM	#51 (permalink)
Richie Waves Joie de vivre! Is Three apples Tall Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Between Iraq and Israel Posts: 9,354 SL Join Date: 27/06/2005	ROE: if it moves and wears a towel its a target -Black Water command __________________ My lastfm Oooh, Betty! the cat did a shit in the hat

09-24-2008, 11:15 AM	#59 (permalink)
Lucifer Baphomet Spin on it Zenophile Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Darkmere Posts: 12,964 My Mood: Business: Radio Free Darkmere Awards: 1	America would never use its own troops on its own citizens, and no one was shot at Kent State. Does this post really need irony tags? __________________

09-24-2008, 11:26 AM	#63 (permalink)
Merovigan Hard-Hitting Cornerback I thought they should have filed for bankruptcy BEFORE we gave them billions of dollars Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 3,929 My Mood: Blog Entries: 11 XBOX Leaderboard: 2^nd Awards: 1	OMG stop it guys...our government would never do anything against its people, like lie to it in order to get a war going.... SHIT! Now you've got me doing it!!! __________________ “I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.” Frederick Douglas

09-24-2008, 11:37 AM	#73 (permalink)
Mereille AFK Packing Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,112 My Mood:	Well...Kent State does show that placing armed troops in the same place as a disgruntled populace is a good formula for getting people shot. If Amy Goodman is at all right. People are going to be killed over it. And a US soldier is going to be the one bearing the guilt of actions beyond his control. __________________ I don't know why I think I can manage Second Life....just look at my First Life! Gah!

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

09-24-2008, 10:13 AM	#54 (permalink)
RandoymRandt Senior Member Consumable Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: AU Posts: 3,411 My Mood: SL Join Date: Originally June 5, 2007	You know what this says In Arabic? "Don't Tailgate"

09-24-2008, 11:03 AM	#58 (permalink)
RandoymRandt Senior Member Consumable Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: AU Posts: 3,411 My Mood: SL Join Date: Originally June 5, 2007	My definition of an expert in any field is a person who knows enough about what's really going on to be scared. P. J. Plauger, Computer Language, March 1983

09-24-2008, 11:24 AM	#61 (permalink)
Psyke Phaeton Senior Member SLU Supporter Running 'round in Circle's Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 7,186 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 1 SL Join Date: 12-Oct-2003 Business: PDS HomeSecurity Orb - Security Orbs since 2004 Blog Entries: 4	Waco Siege - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

09-24-2008, 11:27 AM	#64 (permalink)
RandoymRandt Senior Member Consumable Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: AU Posts: 3,411 My Mood: SL Join Date: Originally June 5, 2007

09-24-2008, 11:29 AM	#66 (permalink)
Psyke Phaeton Senior Member SLU Supporter Running 'round in Circle's Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 7,186 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 1 SL Join Date: 12-Oct-2003 Business: PDS HomeSecurity Orb - Security Orbs since 2004 Blog Entries: 4	All that is required is to give them the label terrorist.

09-24-2008, 11:37 AM	#74 (permalink)
Surreal Mental Health Hazard Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 9,404 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 6 Blog Entries: 49	Somebody has been watching too much Jericho.

Logo

Site Navigation