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Old 06-12-2018, 05:27 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Thank you, Beebo for this fresh take. After a few hours of absolute outrage and dismay I did begin thinking maybe this president can do more with charm than than anyone else has done with what ever they put into it. And now you make good points about relieving of Kim some of the need to posture at least.

He has the nukes. No amount of threats is going to make him part with them so we really have nothing to lose there.

But what about the message to other despotic violators of human rights around the world? Russia. North Korea, who's next?

As far as abandoning every ally we have ever held dear in the fight against tyranny, well I think the rest of the world has reason to hope, as have we at home that this is just temporary, that the traditional nature of the U.S. will soon re-emerge.

But at the same time leaders in Japan, Europe and Canada must be thinking ahead to the possibility that they will have to overtly band together against us at least with regards to trade.

As for the lifting of sanctions I guess that the new Trump hotels and beach resorts will employ a number of people at slave wages, which are better than no wages. It will certainly help Kim make his privileged few more comfortable. And perhaps open trade enough to improve the lot of the common people.

As for the motivations of Trump I think Sid has probably nailed it. I flipped over to Fox for a while last night and I was not surprised at how they were reporting it.

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I think it is all about making the morons administration look as good as possible, while heading towards the midterm elections.
Like Veritable already pointed out: The real important issues did not matter at all.
It is all to make 45 look great for his potential voters.
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:38 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Old 06-12-2018, 07:21 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Veritable Quandry View Post
No discussion of human rights, chemical and biological weapons, malware, missiles, artillery, foreign hostages and kidnappings, or supporting terrorists and criminals. We sold the farm for a vague promise of magic beans at an undisclosed date in the future.

It was very humble of Mr. Kim not to bring up the facts about America


No discussion of human rights

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/201.../united-states




















No discussion of chemical and biological weapon malware, missiles, artillery,


https://priceonomics.com/how-the-us-...al-warfare-on/







No discussion of supporting terrorists and criminals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ored_terrorism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._regime_change



We sold the farm for a vague promise of magic beans at an undisclosed date in the future.

Consequences of Depletion of Natural Resources - The World Counts

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...mate-deal.html

The ideal of the American way of life as formulated in the twentieth century has collapsed early in the new Millennium without most Americans even realizing it. Its basic tenets are either by now just false, or are unsustainable, so that we’re in a barrel and about to go off the edge at Niagara Falls.
1. Upward mobility. It is no longer an expectation for middle class or below. The top 5% has almost all of it. As growth stagnates, unemployment rises and mobility is downward, not upward. The Old World societies of Europe have more upward mobility than the US.
2. Privacy? Gone – even the corrupt MSM (mainstream media) acknowledges the end of privacy. What we buy, write, email, text, think – not to mention our accounts and whereabouts – is recorded. Nothing is too trivial to store in the data banks. We are an open book, and the spooks (government and corporate) read us and manipulate us.
3. Abundant energy? Crude oil, the key resource, became 4.5 times more expensive from about 1990 to now. That is “supply shock”, which is the fear and the reality that supply won’t meet demand. With crude oil, we have been teetering on the brink of diminished supply since 2004/5, and one day soon we’ll be there. Imagine a world with oil most of us cannot afford – what then will gasoline-powered cars be worth? Five cents a pound?
4. Markets – the key to efficiency and abundance. To be anything like a blessing, though, markets must be perfect, and include all costs and all benefits – the upsides and downsides. But markets are grossly imperfect – a corrupt mess, actually. Would you let your neighbor heave pollutants over your fence and onto your yard? No – you’d call the cops! But it is the business model of energy companies to burn fossil fuels and simply dump the resulting CO2 into our common atmosphere with zero effort to mitigate the catastrophic results. They make all the money; we get the pollution and global warming.
5. Persistent organic pollutants (POPs) are safe. We have a “risk paradigm” to protect ourselves against these deadly and alien poisons. The risk model assumes our ecosystems can contain and absorb these toxins – but that premise is false! POPs are neither absorbed nor contained – they persist and spread! What is worse is that they bio-accumulate in the fatty tissues of animals – like you and me. The half-lives of POPs (synthetic substances – not known in nature) range from 7 to 1,800,000,000 years. There are no earthly environments or processes which safely destroy these poisons. You get these alien compounds in your body by breathing and by eating. Good luck!
6. We are a peaceful nation. No, we’re not! We spend more on the military ($684bn in 2011) than any other country by a factor of 4! (US = 39% of world military spending, China = 9.5 %. (2011 data)) (That total US spending is probably an understated figure – the real number is surely top secret.) We are seldom without military engagements, and, in any case, have been continuously at war since 2001. We conduct assassinations (often via drone) at will across the globe as part of the “war on terror” whether a war is declared or not. We imagine we are above the law – “exceptional”.
7. We value education. But if we value it, why are we radically defunding it at the local, state and federal levels? Outrageous military budgets, and huge agricultural and fossil fuels subsidies persist, but education is slashed year by year – and contempt for education and teachers grows.
8. The greatest delusion is that we can ignore global warming. The catastrophic changes warming brings last thousands of years. Our descendants will justifiably vilify us – we are the generation which selfishly and ignorantly turned our backs on the future.
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Old 06-12-2018, 07:38 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I'm not giving this motherfucker, yes motherfucker, any credit. I'm not feeling very conciliatory toward anything or anyone in this administration.

He ramped things up with his twitter threats and tirades, he brought it to the brink, then he gets to come in like he is some white knight, saving the world? Give me a break.

Am I happy that there isn't currently nuclear armageddon? Sure I am, as much as any of us are.

But no, not a single iota of credit, and I think that long-term this will be nothing more than a publicity stunt, on both of their parts. Do I hope it leads to better than that. Of course. Not holding my breath.
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Old 06-12-2018, 07:39 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:05 PM   #31 (permalink)
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So let's put aside the moral argument for a moment (although the issues in the US pale in kind and in scope to the situation in North Korea).

Let's just look at regional security. The vast majority of the population of South Korea is in range of North Korean artillery. Which is in a combination of mobile and hardened batteries. While there are questions about the accuracy of the NK missile program, it is safe to say that they can hit close enough to Japanese cities. Both of these delivery methods can carry conventional, biological, or chemical weapons. While nukes are scary, North Korea can do far more damage with their non Nuclear weapons, considering they do not appear to have a reliable delivery system for their nukes. Failure to address these weapons does nothing for Japan or South Korea, while a pullback of US commitments to regional security makes them weaker.

Do you want Japan to develop offensive capabilities? Because this is how you scare Japan into an arms race.

eta: It is also worth mentioning why Trump decided to violate the agreement with Iran. He objected because it did not cover missiles and support of terrorists.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:34 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:55 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritable Quandry View Post

Do you want Japan to develop offensive capabilities? Because this is how you scare Japan into an arms race.
Is this how we get Gundams and Evas? Because maybe we should explore this idea.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:47 AM   #34 (permalink)
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FTW
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Old 06-13-2018, 03:25 AM   #35 (permalink)
But it refused. <3

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Old 06-13-2018, 05:05 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by WolfEyes View Post
I think Trump is a fool (tool).
Oh no, he's not a fool at all, he's really clever. But you have to remember what his one and only agenda is:
Always look out for number one
He's doing that quite well.
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:40 AM   #37 (permalink)
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It kinda feels like Trump is being praised for reconciling with the guy he drunkenly picked a fight with in a bar.
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:49 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Beebo Brink View Post
Trump supporters hardly need an excuse for "new confidence." They can manufacture victories out of thin air and completely ignore an ignominious capitulation to an opponent. There really isn't any way to undermine that kind of mindset.
Nah, I think it was beginning to waver. Maybe not among the hardcore, but I got the impression his support was dwindling.

There's definitely a significant shift in his favour now, though. Even lefties are praising him.
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:54 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kaimi Kyomoon View Post
After a few hours of absolute outrage and dismay I did begin thinking maybe this president can do more with charm than than anyone else has done with what ever they put into it.
Are we really at the point where fat shaming over twitter and boasting about the size of weapons of mass destruction is considered charm? I assume you meant a different word.
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:16 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Finally! The news is doing the obvious comparison with the Iran deal.

Iran: Countless experts discussed all aspects of it for years and when it became public it still was not finalized. It had strong verification and benefits were tied to what was given up. Donnie decided he did not like it and tore it up, despite all the experts and even heads of state pleading with him not to do so.

N Korea: Two guys deciding on an aspirational document between themselves with one side giving things up without even telling people after the fact. The forces we have stationed in S Korea are still planning the next exercise because nobody has told them not to yet.
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:58 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Trump tore up the Iran deal because Obama made it. That's it, that's the sum total of the analysis needed to "understand" that particular decision.

Trump happily handed over an armful of free gifts to North Korea because Obama never shook Kim Jung Un's hand.

This is as good as it gets, folks, while Trump is in office. No matter how much we rail against the obvious contradictions, the sheer massive stupidity of what he does, it all comes down to what shiny thing makes Donnie happy at that moment.

The pundits who tie themselves in knots trying to analyze Trump's decisions and understand his methods or policy position are beyond dim themselves. The "leader of the free world" is a spoiled 5-year-old. Just how long does it take for them to get that?
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:42 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Trump's talking about North Korea, not North Dakota, right?

Just seeking clarification...
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:54 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Trump's talking about North Korea, not North Dakota, right?

Just seeking clarification...
Good point. Someone should remind him ND was one of the places he screwed with over a pipeline and this is someplace we are at war with. Not that he cares, it is well known what he thinks of Native Americans.
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:40 AM   #44 (permalink)
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The "leader of the free world" is a spoiled 5-year-old. Just how long does it take for them to get that?

The rest of the free world got that part already, but how to react to that?
A Ignore him and his clown show?
B Isolate his administration?
C Cut all ties with the US?

D Start a war?
E Keep things as normal as possible and pray a lot, that the US population knows what to do during the next few elections?
F Vote for more of the same kind of clowns in European key positions, like Wilders and Le Pen?



Who knows the right answer, may step forward.


Personally I would go for option E and if that fails a combination of A, B and C.

Last edited by Sid II; 06-13-2018 at 12:11 PM. Reason: Oops, I choose the wrong option :)
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:26 PM   #45 (permalink)
But it refused. <3

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid II View Post
The rest of the free world got that part already, but how to react to that?
A Ignore him and his clown show?
B Isolate his administration?
C Cut all ties with the US?

D Start a war?
E Keep things as normal as possible and pray a lot, that the US population knows what to do during the next few elections?
F Vote for more of the same kind of clowns in European key positions, like Wilders and Le Pen?



Who knows the right answer, may step forward.


Personally I would go for option E and if that fails a combination of A, B and C.

Up until recently, Canada's been doing a lot of B and E with Trudeau being friendly face while various committees and officials have been doing end runs around the White House to deal with individual states directly. E seems to have fallen off the table so I suspect we'll be doing a lot more A and B.


C would be geographically impossible without support from other allies beyond a few tweets.






Eurofighters are twin engine and suitable for cold environs, no?
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:35 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid II View Post
The rest of the free world got that part already, but how to react to that?
A Ignore him and his clown show?
B Isolate his administration?
C Cut all ties with the US?
D Start a war?
E Keep things as normal as possible and pray a lot, that the US population knows what to do during the next few elections?
F Vote for more of the same kind of clowns in European key positions, like Wilders and Le Pen?

Who knows the right answer, may step forward.
Sir Humphrey Applebee to the rescue, as usual:

Quote:
If we do nothing, that means we implicitly agree with the speech. If we issue a statement, we'll just look foolish. If we lodge a protest, it'll be ignored. We can't cut off aid, because we don't give them any. If we break off diplomatic relations, then we can't negotiate.

And if we declare war, it might just look as though we were over-reacting!
There you have it! Six answers, all of them bad. Bad people do not give you good options, only a list of bad ones.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:19 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Trump’s Negotiating Style Is Pure Art of the Moron

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Leaving aside my usual critiques of Trump, which are, as you may have noticed, colorful, varied, and pointed, let’s give the president a fair assessment of his week’s activities, and thanks and credit where thanks and credit are due.

Of course, we start when Trump fled the humid confines of Washington, D.C., jetting to Quebec to blow up the G7 summit and take a massive political and rhetorical dump on some of our longest-standing and closest allies. But I’m playing nice, so thank you, Mr. President, for adopting 19th-century trade policies that combine both raging economic illiteracy and inevitably adverse outcomes for America. Well done.

Thank you, because nothing says Presidential Stature like your juvenile dick-waving and insults attacking the heads of state of the G7 nations. Thanks are also in order for deploying your clown-car motorcade of loudmouth, shock-jock aides to make the damage worse.

Great work taking direction from the Home Office in Moscow; you spent more time at the G7 summit doing Vladimir Putin’s bidding than you did strengthening the ties between the United States and our closest allies.

Even so, I’m supposed to thank the president, right? Well, thank you, Donald. You sent a message to our allies in Asia and beyond that you’re willing to compromise their security and ours for an inconsequential photo-op with a hopped-up fatboy dictator who looks like Pyongyang already has a Krispy Kreme and a Popeyes, and he’s the only one allowed to eat in them.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:33 PM   #48 (permalink)
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a hopped-up fatboy dictator who looks like Pyongyang already has a Krispy Kreme and a Popeyes, and he’s the only one allowed to eat in them
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Old 06-13-2018, 06:01 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Oh no, he's not a fool at all, he's really clever. But you have to remember what his one and only agenda is:
Always look out for number one
He's doing that quite well.
You're correct. He isn't much of a fool when it comes to himself.

It's when it comes to everyone else that he is a fool and a tool.

He really is not that intelligent. He just has a lot of people buffaloed. A lot of people.
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Old 06-13-2018, 06:49 PM   #50 (permalink)
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ETA: Just saw it posted other thread.
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