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Old 06-09-2018, 12:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Bid to block Bernie Sanders? DNC adopts rule change

Bid to block Bernie Sanders? DNC adopts rule change, wants only avowed Democrats to run
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:33 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Some supporters of Sanders -- who caucuses with the Democrats despite declining to declare a party affiliation -- say the move was motivated by “spite” after Sanders gave Hillary Clinton a run for her money during the Democratic primaries in 2016.

But a source told Yahoo News it was actually part of a push to limit the power of so-called superdelegates -- which, ironically, has long been a goal of Sanders.
So which do we choose? Spite, or smarts? I'm not sure this is a effective move right now beyond the simplistic concerns of "maintaining party discipline."
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I'll vote, because I've always voted, and because voting against someone is better than not voting at all. However, if the DNC wants people like me? Turning into a authoritarian party like the GOP is NOT the way to do it.


And I think its quite likely we'll end up with new parties soon, if we manage to hang onto our democracy.


What would be amusing is if all the independents; progressive and conservative, united to form one party that was country over party politics. Even if we didn't all agree on anything, if we could just agree with doing our best for everyone, and not play football or baseball with our government, then maybe we could get this train back on the rails.
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:56 PM   #4 (permalink)
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What would be amusing is if all the independents; progressive and conservative, united to form one party that was country over party politics.
That would be amusing.
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Old 06-09-2018, 05:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Aribeth Zelin View Post
I'll vote, because I've always voted, and because voting against someone is better than not voting at all. However, if the DNC wants people like me? Turning into a authoritarian party like the GOP is NOT the way to do it.


And I think its quite likely we'll end up with new parties soon, if we manage to hang onto our democracy.


What would be amusing is if all the independents; progressive and conservative, united to form one party that was country over party politics. Even if we didn't all agree on anything, if we could just agree with doing our best for everyone, and not play football or baseball with our government, then maybe we could get this train back on the rails.
I've always been an independent, and right after the election I joined the Democratic Party so that I could help elect more Democrats. I believe that's the only way we have any hope of saving this sinking ship.
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Old 06-09-2018, 08:10 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I don't like this, just like I don't like the lack of coherent messaging on a national level. That said, this is still /far/ better than allowing the current evil that grips American government to continue. I'd rather stick with the mildly distasteful than see the things I see happening now go on - and split tickets will only benefit the status quo.
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Old 06-09-2018, 09:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
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With America on fire, are we really going to go into this Bernie vs D Party BS again? Really?
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Old 06-09-2018, 10:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
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With America on fire, are we really going to go into this Bernie vs D Party BS again? Really?

I've a couple American former friends who to this day feel the rest of the world without a vote in the matter at all can just burn because they didn't get their preferred brand of pony. Apparently I'm unreasonable. Fuck 'em.
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:23 PM   #9 (permalink)
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With America on fire, are we really going to go into this Bernie vs D Party BS again? Really?
It seems like a basic horrifying problem that a large chunk of the Democratic establishment doesn't want change or Bernie.
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:29 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I don't want Bernie either, and I voted for him in the primary. I've said it before and I will say it again, it is time for the baby boomers to let their children take over.

I'm done with old white men, even those with the best intentions as I concede Bernie has the best intentions when it comes to lifting the weak in our society, he all too predictably has a very wide blind spot when it comes to race and sex, often playing right into the narrative that white men alone are right to be angry about the state of society.

The official age that a person need be to run for President is 35. We do not need to consistently keep electing people who are twice that age. There is much to be said for older people having the benefit of life experience and then there is the drawback of old and negative attitudes which have had a lifetime of osmosis.
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:34 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Fair enough. Bernie is old. The whole Nancy Pelosi lets be almost like the republicans mindset is stomach turning though.
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Aribeth Zelin View Post

And I think its quite likely we'll end up with new parties soon, if we manage to hang onto our democracy.
If we don't do the first, we won't do the second.
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:56 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jacqueline trudeau View Post
With America on fire, are we really going to go into this Bernie vs D Party BS again? Really?
Tell it to the DNC -they're the one picking the fight.
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Old 06-10-2018, 12:08 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Fair enough. Bernie is old. The whole Nancy Pelosi lets be almost like the republicans mindset is stomach turning though.
That is also fair enough, as well. Note that my objections to Bernie lie in more than his age.

I think, that our country, both Democrat and Republican, have abandoned the common person. Money equals power. Money has flooded our system and there isn't any easy answer. Not a single one wants to address that problem because they both need it to get elected. We had an opportunity to address it decades ago, and did not. The Supreme Court decision cemented it right into our decline.

That said? I cannot imagine a Democrat, ANY democrat, no matter how much I might diverge from them on that or any other particular question, overthrowing the law, looting the country, destroying our credibility, being a Russian stooge, enough that I personally consider them a traitor.

Quite frankly, I would vote for Mickey Mouse over Trump or any other Republican. They can be counted on, quite predictably, to usurp power away from the people, to punish poor people, to steal everything not nailed down and to take away rights, rights which I consider inalienable.

There really is no equal comparison within the Democratic party.
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Old 06-10-2018, 12:52 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jolene Benoir View Post
I'm done with old white men, even those with the best intentions as I concede Bernie has the best intentions when it comes to lifting the weak in our society, he all too predictably has a very wide blind spot when it comes to race and sex, often playing right into the narrative that white men alone are right to be angry about the state of society.
I am a woman of color and I don't believe that for one second. Pundits like to construe it that way, but I don't think that in the slightest of him. He cares about this country, all of us.


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The official age that a person need be to run for President is 35. We do not need to consistently keep electing people who are twice that age. There is much to be said for older people having the benefit of life experience and then there is the drawback of old and negative attitudes which have had a lifetime of osmosis.
Agreed. But there is a reason why Bernie keeps resonating with young people.
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Old 06-10-2018, 07:39 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Bernie is 76. Holy Jebus, do you really want to end up with a president over 80?
I mean, a queen or king with totally no political power whatsoever, okay, but a president with loads of real power?
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Old 06-10-2018, 10:11 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I have said it before. We have a min age, we need a max age.

At some point "experience" gets overshadowed by "out of touch".
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Old 06-10-2018, 10:47 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I have said it before. We have a min age, we need a max age.

At some point "experience" gets overshadowed by "out of touch".
There are also certain degenerative diseases that, while fairly easy to see in terms of behavior, are hard to diagnose.

We are all human. We all degenerate over time. It's built right into our system. Sure, we live longer now, but we are not immune from the ravages of time. Some of us will be the incredibly lucky few who might not see those changes as strongly, but as a cumulative we will.

We, perhaps, want to see our heroes, whether it be the crazy Donald on the right, or the superhero of the weak, Bernie, on the left as immune from this process, actual reality generally leans otherwise.
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Old 06-10-2018, 11:14 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Google says the average life expectancy in 1776 was like 40 years old as well.

Basically, putting in a max age wasn't something needed to be considered.

Also, lets say we make some breakthrough, people are healthy and live to 250. That max age can always be pushed back more.
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Old 06-10-2018, 12:46 PM   #20 (permalink)
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There is a lot I can say here, but it isn't easy to do it without a wall of text and pitchfork scars for a reward, but here goes, and without a bunch of quotes added in.


Like Ambiguous, I was never registered as a party member, came to same conclusion in 2016 and registered Democrat. Most of this reasoning is not just opinion, it's based on both the constitutional requirement of a majority of electoral votes rather than a plurality (or any alternative process), and the fact that state and congressional legislatures are comprised almost entirely of Democrats and Republicans only. Any way you slice it, a third party candidate for president with a large enough number of supporters to be serious will almost surely give the decision of who becomes President to Congress rather than the results of the voters. Without a constitutional change, the only real possibility of a third party president would require a third party also having a large number of Representatives in the US House.


The idea that a party would allow someone to run with their financing and support has never been a common or acceptable proposal. That the Democrats have allowed it from Bernie Sanders was really an exception, not the norm. Before I say anything else about it, or Bernie, I'll add that this does not rule out him running under Democratic platform. He can join the party and run again if he decides. Many think he might do this, run again and even drop the party afterwards whether he wins or not.


He has always been allowed to run and take the Democratic Party nomination for Senator in Vermont, followed by turning it down to run in the general as independent. This is also being by some people as his own primary rigging. I'm not sure I completely agree with that, but it's not routine for anyone else. Once he has the Democratic nomination there and turns it down, no Democratic Party candidate is on their ballot. Truth is, any serious contender is free to challenge him in the primary, but serious opposition hasn't really been happening there.


One thing I am sure of is that the Democratic Party base (voters, not just party leaders as being insinuated) have been vocal about this. You have to actually go talk directly to them instead of news shows interviewing Bernie, who isn't a Democrat, a random Republican and various pundits constantly, without even having Democrats invited to weigh in. First and foremost, before anyone wants to insist the party is dividing, those said to be splitting must first be Democrats. If they aren't, the party is not divided. They weren't there to begin with and still aren't. Most Democrats are fine with voting in Democratic Party primaries only for Democratic Party candidates.


There is nobody taking threat of 'creating another party' seriously simply because there ALREADY ARE a lot of parties created. If you want to join and run as another, you have plenty of choices. Whether or not there is any serious challenge from another one isn't the point here. If you don't run and hold offices in local, state, and congressional positions, and only aim for being President, good luck with that. That House of Representatives will not bend over for you when you get close enough to prevent anyone from having an outright majority. Even having close to a third of Representatives representing you would give enough bargaining leeway to make it possible, but all we've ever had is less than a handful of any but the major two in Congress.


Jolene didn't pull her statements out of thin air. Our Revolution has had only an extremely limited few PoC speaking out for them. Those outright pissed off at them are the huge majority. I know it's hard to throw out exact source data here, and although Twitter is not dependable for news, it has been the primary place to see the views of a multitude you don't hear from otherwise. They aren't hard to find.


Specific examples with Bernie -
*NSF Our Revolution supporters*


In the end, I would repeat what I underlined above.


And leave you @BravenakBlog aka WonderBitch for Wonkette


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Old 06-10-2018, 01:02 PM   #21 (permalink)
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The problem with that is the major political parties have conspired to write laws and rules making it nearly impossible for a third party to win.
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Old 06-10-2018, 01:25 PM   #22 (permalink)
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it's based on both the constitutional requirement of a majority of electoral votes rather than a plurality (or any alternative process), and the fact that state and congressional legislatures are comprised almost entirely of Democrats and Republicans only. Any way you slice it, a third party candidate for president with a large enough number of supporters to be serious will almost surely give the decision of who becomes President to Congress rather than the results of the voters. Without a constitutional change, the only real possibility of a third party president would require a third party also having a large number of Representatives in the US House.
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The problem with that is the major political parties have conspired to write laws and rules making it nearly impossible for a third party to win.

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Old 06-10-2018, 01:25 PM   #23 (permalink)
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The problem with that is the major political parties have conspired to write laws and rules making it nearly impossible for a third party to win.

The problem with that is it is just a conspiracy.



Anyone can run for office with money they can raise and support they find for votes. That it will be easier with a major party eventually backing you? Yes. That doesn't require any organization to support you leading them.
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Old 06-10-2018, 03:57 PM   #24 (permalink)
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This whole thing is kind of interesting to me. Does the Democratic Party have an identity, or is it the Everyone-Who's-Not-Republicans party? Do Democrats want it to be? Do non-Democrats?
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Old 06-10-2018, 04:58 PM   #25 (permalink)
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This whole thing is kind of interesting to me. Does the Democratic Party have an identity, or is it the Everyone-Who's-Not-Republicans party? Do Democrats want it to be? Do non-Democrats?
Speaking as someone who has been a Democrat her entire life, yes the Democratic party has an identity. It has been borne from our forefathers, people like FDR, JFK, Hubert H. Humphrey. It is one of a struggle to make the promises of this country a reality for all regardless of their circumstance in life. There has always been a difference between what this country states and what actually happens in reality. We are the ones who want to make those promises real for all, not just a select few who have had the luck to have been born into what is considered those rights.

Perhaps yes, in recent years, let's say since GWB, by the nature of events happening we have been reactionary, trying to hold onto gains that have been made in the past as they are threatened with increasing volume. They haven't gone anywhere.

There is a great deal more involved such as protections basic to human survival and thriving. I'm only speaking of a core belief and not all of the details.

Just my own personal take.
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