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Old 04-23-2018, 05:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Toronto van attack

A man in a rental van killed 9 people and injured 16 others as he repeatedly drove over a curb and into pedestrians on a mile-long stretch of a downtown Toronto street this afternoon. Police have stopped a van believed to be the one involved and have taken a suspect into custody.
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Old 04-23-2018, 10:50 PM   #2 (permalink)
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So the guy's name is known by now. I don't want to spend an inordinate amount of time on him, but I did notice this weird detail from the CBC:

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Speculation surfaced Monday night around a Facebook post associated with the same name and the same photo as the one that appears on Minassian's LinkedIn profile. CBC News has not been able to independently verify whether the Facebook post was, indeed, written by Minassian or created after that fact and intended to mislead.

The post referred to the "Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger." Rodger was the 22-year-old California man responsible for a deadly rampage in Isla Vista, Calif., that left six people dead and a dozen more injured.

In a video posted ahead of that 2014 attack, Rodger raged about a number of women turning down his advances, rendering men like him "incels," a term that stands for "involuntarily celibate."
I don't know what the CBC's reputation for dependability is - that is, I don't know whether it's considered a news organization that would run with salacious rumor or not.
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:46 AM   #3 (permalink)
But it refused. <3

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CBC is a Crown Corporation. It's analogous to BBC or (loosely) NPR and PBS. In some remote areas it's the only broadcast you get.

CBC News isn't spotless from controversy but the specifics are so rare and unremarkable I don't remember any offhand. Within Canada it's generally deemed reliable.

Wikipedia for a few minutes might be an interesting quick read, particularly Crown Corporation and (British) Royal Charter.
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Old 04-24-2018, 06:03 AM   #4 (permalink)
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The BBC contrast different policing methods in the USA and Canada:
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The calm actions of a police officer who arrested the Toronto van suspect without firing a shot have prompted praise and, in some quarters, astonishment.

Video from the scene shows suspect Alek Minassian pointing an object at the officer and shouting: "Kill me!"

The officer tells the man to "get down" and when the suspect says he has a gun, the officer repeats: "I don't care. Get down."

Minassian is then seen lying down and the officer arrests him.

Many in North America are asking how the suspect did not end up dead in a hail of police gunfire. It contrasts with incidents in the US where police have shot and killed unarmed people.
Toronto van attack: How is the suspect not dead? - BBC News
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:08 AM   #5 (permalink)
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If you watch the video of the arrest, he appears to hold something in his hand directed at the officer, he yells that he has a gun and makes several rapid motions as if drawing a gun from his pocket. I mean really, it looks like he's trying to play at cowboys. He was clearly attempting to provoke him into shooting.
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:44 AM   #6 (permalink)
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That would be because, in general, canadian cops are a professional police force, not a "street gang with badges"
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:56 AM   #7 (permalink)
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That would be because, in general, canadian cops are a professional police force, not a "street gang with badges"
It's not just that, I think. I was rather shaken to read this, in the article
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However, Michael Lyman, professor of Criminal Justice Administration at Columbia College of Missouri, told the BBC that the officer may have had a "duty" to kill the suspect.

"Assuming the suspect is holding a gun and pointing it toward officers, it is concerning that the officer is not engaging the suspect with deadly force," he said.

Professor Lyman said that the officer might not have opened fire out of fear of public criticism after the event.

"People died as a result of the suspect's actions. Can we assume that the officer knew this? If so, this changes things a bit in that the level of public threat is higher. Under this circumstance, it would seem that the officer had a 'duty' to respond with deadly force - assuming what he was holding was a firearm," he said.
Toronto van attack: How is the suspect not dead? - BBC News

Certainly if suspect was brandishing a gun, or the officer thought he was, then a jury might well think that shooting him would be reasonable force in self-defence or defence of another in the circumstances as he understood them at the time (the test over here) but I don't think that translates into a duty of any sort, and particularly if the suspect isn't, in fact, pointing a gun at anyone.
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Old 04-24-2018, 09:59 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
It's not just that, I think. I was rather shaken to read this, in the articleToronto van attack: How is the suspect not dead? - BBC News

Certainly if suspect was brandishing a gun, or the officer thought he was, then a jury might well think that shooting him would be reasonable force in self-defence or defence of another in the circumstances as he understood them at the time (the test over here) but I don't think that translates into a duty of any sort, and particularly if the suspect isn't, in fact, pointing a gun at anyone.
While it's hard to judge perspective in the video I saw, there are people in the background filing out of the building behind (to the left side of the video) the suspect, so I think it's safe to assume that there's at least a strong possibility of non-suspects being in the officer's line of fire.
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:40 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota Tebaldi View Post
So the guy's name is known by now. I don't want to spend an inordinate amount of time on him, but I did notice this weird detail from the CBC:



I don't know what the CBC's reputation for dependability is - that is, I don't know whether it's considered a news organization that would run with salacious rumor or not.
The article has been updated, I think. It now includes this:

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The post that appeared on Minassian's Facebook page included a line that said the "incel rebellion has already begun. We will overthrow all the Chads and the Stacys."

"This is a terrible tragedy, and our hearts go out to the people who have been affected," Facebook said in a statement. "There is absolutely no place on our platform for people who commit such horrendous acts."

The social networking site said it identified Minassian's account after the attack and immediately deleted it.
Also, not a tweet of condolence from Trump, at all? WTF. You/They are one of our closest allies, ffs.
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:11 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:24 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Is it possible that this childish, infantile, little asshole really killed 10 people and irrevocably changed the life of 15 others because women wouldn't sleep with him?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/alek-m...ghts-incel-mra

One thing a lot of these mass killers do seem to have in common: a sense of entitlement and their hatred and distrust of women.
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:28 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Have we checked in with all of our Canadian posters here? I mean, I know the odds would be fairly low that anyone was involved, but I'd feel better knowing for sure.
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
But it refused. <3

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolene Benoir View Post
Have we checked in with all of our Canadian posters here? I mean, I know the odds would be fairly low that anyone was involved, but I'd feel better knowing for sure.
I am not aware of any SLU Torontonians. IIRC there are more Montrealers.
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Old 04-24-2018, 02:09 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jolene Benoir View Post
Have we checked in with all of our Canadian posters here? I mean, I know the odds would be fairly low that anyone was involved, but I'd feel better knowing for sure.
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Originally Posted by Kamilah Hauptmann View Post
I am not aware of any SLU Torontonians. IIRC there are more Montrealers.
There are a few of us around, as far as I recall, although not too many who post regularly.

I have a friend who lives in one of the buildings where this all started and he basically got home from work to see three body bags still laid out on the ground. Apparently a relative of another friend was a victim. No one I know directly was actually there during the incident.

We're all just digesting the rest of this like everyone else.

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Also, not a tweet of condolence from Trump, at all? WTF. You/They are one of our closest allies, ffs.
He won't even talk about the Waffle House shootings. Coming from him, it does not surprise me in the least.
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Old 04-24-2018, 03:05 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Also from the Toronto area here. Thanks for the kind concern, most appreciated. I wasn't in the area of the horrific events, but like others, still reeling in shock from this happening in our community. Despite its size and population, being the largest city in Canada, Toronto has still been one of the safest in North America.

I haven't posted in quite ages, due to health challenges, but wanted to check in to report being safe. My prayers and condolences go out to all those affected.
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Old 04-24-2018, 03:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
If you watch the video of the arrest, he appears to hold something in his hand directed at the officer, he yells that he has a gun and makes several rapid motions as if drawing a gun from his pocket. I mean really, it looks like he's trying to play at cowboys. He was clearly attempting to provoke him into shooting.
We call that "suicide by cop".
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Old 04-24-2018, 03:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I'm in Vancouver and I heard about it while working. I do cellphone transactions for a cellphone company for their stores. I did talk to one dealer that day that works around there and he missed his break that day due to them being busy. If he would have went he would have been there. He was pretty shaken up.

Keeping all the victims and their families and friends in my thoughts and prayers.
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Old 04-24-2018, 03:48 PM   #18 (permalink)
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That would be because, in general, canadian cops are a professional police force, not a "street gang with badges"
I will admit that part of me wishes they would have shot and killed the POS.

I know that is bad, but i just can't help it.
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Old 04-24-2018, 03:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
It's not just that, I think. I was rather shaken to read this, in the articleToronto van attack: How is the suspect not dead? - BBC News

Certainly if suspect was brandishing a gun, or the officer thought he was, then a jury might well think that shooting him would be reasonable force in self-defence or defence of another in the circumstances as he understood them at the time (the test over here) but I don't think that translates into a duty of any sort, and particularly if the suspect isn't, in fact, pointing a gun at anyone.
I'm not sure if it's fear of public perception so much as it is maybe reflecting the way training is changing. There have been quite a few killings of mentally distressed, or people belonging to visual minoroties, by the police using excessive force in Toronto and Montreal in the past (focusing on these two cities only because of familiarity). In these cases, the departments in question acknowledged there was a problem and promised to work with community groups to change and ameliorate. Obviously, many people thought it didn't go far enough or fast enough because of past inaction, etc. but a few really horrid police action in the idk last 10 years caught on camera may I think really have changed not only the training, but the views of those at the top. My point being, I don't think the public's perception is nearly as powerful in the eyes of those in a "closed community" as the recognition/respect of fellow cops and their leaders. And if this is the result of a change of training and objectives, I am glad. It gives me hope.

In this case, ex-police chiefs and cops (ex because they would probably be the only ones right now allowed to express their views so soon) all seemed to praise his actions, along with the public. I remember a story about an American cop in, I want to say, Cincinnati a few years ago(?) who was fired after a similar interaction And whose fellow officers didn't want to work with him anymore... I think the major difference between the US and Canada (and I am generalizing of course), goes back to how we perceive gun ownership and responsibility. So an American will mostly view the way the policeman acted as irresponsible and reckless, and a Canadian will mostly see the opposite. Again, I am generalizing, and it's just my view point.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:07 PM   #20 (permalink)
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As for me, l'm glad he wasn't killed. When people like him kill themselves or are shot down, they become this great big mystery for the media. Who was he? Who were his friends and family? Why did he do it? And it grows and grows, and then they're on the cover of people, or whatever. Or they become martyrs to other idiot fools...

This way, going through the legal system, they are eventually seen as they are - pathetic loners with mental/emotional problems who took it out on strangers because of illogical reasoning.

I'm not sure if some of you have followed lately the news on the mosque shooter of Quebec City, but he sure doesn't come off as heroic or admirable to anyone who would follow in his footsteps.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:12 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
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It's not just that, I think. I was rather shaken to read this, in the article
LOL at the BBC asking no less than three American law professors to analyze and criticize the behavior of a police officer in another country whose use-of-force and training policies they are not experts on, based on cell phone video taken from a distance.

Maybe not even based on the video. The second guy they interviewed suggested the officer "froze" when even in the video you can clearly see that's not the case.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:54 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
It's not just that, I think. I was rather shaken to read this, in the articleToronto van attack: How is the suspect not dead? - BBC News

Certainly if suspect was brandishing a gun, or the officer thought he was, then a jury might well think that shooting him would be reasonable force in self-defence or defence of another in the circumstances as he understood them at the time (the test over here) but I don't think that translates into a duty of any sort, and particularly if the suspect isn't, in fact, pointing a gun at anyone.
I don't think it was a gun. He was pointing 'something' at the officer but at the same time he was yelling that he had a gun and doing his quick draw routine. If what he was pointing was a gun, the simulated quick draws made no sense. I know people will say that his actions don't need to make sense, but I think he was very deliberate in his actions he had a goal and he was trying to achieve it by actions he thought would provoke a lethal response.
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:00 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I don't think it was a gun.
It was definitely not a gun. It doesn't even have a barrel - the top of the object doesn't extend beyond the top of the guy's fist.

Plus I mean the whole time the guy is "aiming" it at the cop acting like it's a gun, he's repeatedly yelling "I have a gun in my pocket", which kind of undermines his physical playacting.
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:36 PM   #24 (permalink)
But it refused. <3

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota Tebaldi View Post
LOL at the BBC asking no less than three American law professors to analyze and criticize the behavior of a police officer in another country whose use-of-force and training policies they are not experts on, based on cell phone video taken from a distance.

Maybe not even based on the video. The second guy they interviewed suggested the officer "froze" when even in the video you can clearly see that's not the case.
It's extra hilarious when factoring in many or most British police don't even carry firearms. Canadian police do, but still, why ask the Yanks? If they prefer a non Toronto PD spokesman or Ontario police academy statement we do have a number of universities to pick from as well as the RCMP.

Okay, maybe not hilarious. More like O_o
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:42 PM   #25 (permalink)
But it refused. <3

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Surprising no one, "That boy wasn't right."

Toronto van attack suspect Alek Minassian was quickly in and out of Canadian Forces last fall | CBC News
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