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Old 02-18-2018, 09:53 AM   #1 (permalink)
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With all that said, enough is enough. My knee jerk reaction is to consider weapons like the AR-15 no big deal because it is my default setting. Itís where my training lies. It is my normal, because I learned how to fire a rifle IN THE ARMY.
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I was not learning how to be a competition shooter in the Olympics, or a good hunter. I was being taught how to kill people as efficiently as possible, and that was never a secret.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
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We tucked our rifles away in the arms room until the next time we needed them, just as it had been done since the Army’s inception. The military police protected us from threats in garrison. They had 9 mm Berettas to carry. They were the only soldiers who carry weapons in garrison. We trusted them to protect us, and they delivered.
Part of the problem is that there are too many stories floating around of when the police or some other "safeguard" failed to protect. Even in this most recent shooting. Someone had called the FBI about this guy, and nothing happened. I live in a dense urban neighborhood, and the last time I called 911 (because someone was trying my backdoor in broad daylight) it took 15 minutes to arrive, and then they acted like I had massively inconvenienced them and it was all in my head - even though I'd managed to take a picture of the fucker through the kitchen window. 10 days later we got Snape. I still haven't ruled out the possibility of getting a gun. I go back and forth about it.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider something like an AR-15. In my neighborhood, if I opened fire on an intruder with an AR-15, I'd probably take out a few of my neighbors and some poor soul who just happened to be passing by. My mom on the other hand lives way out in the middle of nowhere. i don't even want to think about how long it would take the keystone cops of BFE to reach her.

Plus, approximately a year ago there was a whole thread in this forum where we were all envisioning how things would look as our society continues to fall apart. Guess what? When the government ceases to function, and most of us seem to think that is going to happen in the fairly near future, then there won't be a police force to protect us. Police are an arm of the government.

And thankfully something most people are failing to point out - is that the AR-15 is basically a scary looking .223 hunting rifle -which is what my mom and step-father have for home protection (again they live waaayyyy out in the middle of nowhere). Mostly what it actually gets used for is target shooting/fun. My older brother owns one he actually uses for hunting.

As I said in the other thread what we need is a fucking compromise - baby steps - how about a 19 year old shouldn't be allowed to buy such a weapon, or to buy such a weapon you need to pass a psych test to make sure you're not a murderous raving lunatic? A Russian friend of mine said in Russia they have a step process for gun ownership. First, you can buy a simple single shot hunting rifle. Then, if you behave yourself with that in three years you can buy a handgun should you want to. Then, three years after that - you'd be allowed to buy more serious guns such as an AR-15 or even the .223 hunting rifle. The problem is that the gun-idoloters won't even hear of such things.

These are actual comments on Facebook from right-wingers:

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There shouldn't be any gun laws at all in the U.S. --- we don't believe is strong centralized government (at least the Founders didn't) and the last defenders of liberty are the armed citizen. The left has been creating a victim culture for the past century and this is more the reason for the violence than gun. The reality is that where there are more guns in the hands of citizens there is less crime, not the other way around.
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Oh I could just imagine what that psych test would look like,to get a gun! Do you think that President Trump is evil incarnate? Check yes or yes! Otherwise, you cannot pass this test! According to the psych\mumbo jumbo world, anyone that would support President Trump has to be insane! If you believe in God, you have to be insane! Spank your kids! (take your gun and your kids!) Need I go on! I'm sorry but I don't want our gun rights being decided by a bunch of psycologists! Especially our veterans!
And please note that with the 2nd comment - right wing nuts - are extremely unlikely to seek any kind of mental health services unless forced too - so they wouldn't be caught by a limit on gun sales to people who have had contact with mental health services.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:36 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Zaida Gearbox View Post

As I said in the other thread what we need is a fucking compromise - baby steps - how about a 19 year old shouldn't be allowed to buy such a weapon, or to buy such a weapon you need to pass a psych test to make sure you're not a murderous raving lunatic? A Russian friend of mine said in Russia they have a step process for gun ownership. First, you can buy a simple single shot hunting rifle. Then, if you behave yourself with that in three years you can buy a handgun should you want to. Then, three years after that - you'd be allowed to buy more serious guns such as an AR-15 or even the .223 hunting rifle. The problem is that the gun-idoloters won't even hear of such things.
Right! There is a happy medium between the present state of affairs and banning all guns.

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Originally Posted by Zaida Gearbox View Post
And please note that with the 2nd comment - right wing nuts - are extremely unlikely to seek any kind of mental health services unless forced too - so they wouldn't be caught by a limit on gun sales to people who have had contact with mental health services.
I have never supported banning anything to people who seek out therapists of their own free will. Deterring that will backfire. But if someone gets marked with mental health issues because of their own behavior, then it's fair game to ban selling guns to them.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:58 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Zaida Gearbox View Post
As I said in the other thread what we need is a fucking compromise - baby steps - how about a 19 year old shouldn't be allowed to buy such a weapon, or to buy such a weapon you need to pass a psych test to make sure you're not a murderous raving lunatic? A Russian friend of mine said in Russia they have a step process for gun ownership. First, you can buy a simple single shot hunting rifle. Then, if you behave yourself with that in three years you can buy a handgun should you want to. Then, three years after that - you'd be allowed to buy more serious guns such as an AR-15 or even the .223 hunting rifle. The problem is that the gun-idoloters won't even hear of such things.
What I'd like to see is some sort of licensing requirement, with periodic retesting and registration, just like what we have to do with cars and driving. Want a gun? Simply pass a series of tests, and a background investigation. That way, the gun nuts can have their guns, the crazies who would go shooting up schools and concert venues can't, and everyone wins. And the Second Amendment would still be protected.
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:44 PM   #5 (permalink)
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As I understand it from press reports, Cruz had been well-known to the local police for a number of years, with them being called to her house by his mother multiple times when he flew into destructive rages.

Despite this, he was able pass the necessary background checks and buy his AK-15 and ammunition early last year from a registered gun dealer.

Clearly the FBI dropped the ball badly by not responding to reports about him last month but, assuming that the reports amounted to no more than people's concerns about his alarming posts on social media, and perhaps comments he was making face-to-face, would the FBI actually have had any relevant powers the local police lacked that might have allowed them to confiscate his firearms or to take other preventative measures?

In the UK, if someone has a firearms certificate and his behaviour gives the local police cause for concern, the police can suspend his licence and confiscate his guns and ammunition, and then he has to ask a judge to hold a hearing about whether the police acted reasonably or not. If the judge doesn't give him his certificate back then he can ask the police to deliver the confiscated items to a gun-dealer of his choice to be sold on his behalf.

So in the UK, assuming someone known to be as volatile as Cruz had been able to obtain a firearms certificate in the first place (very unlikely) there would be a clear method of removing his guns if his behaviour seemed to warrant it.

Is there an equivalent mechanism in the USA, and what is the FBI's role? Are their powers to seize lawfully-owned firearms greater than those of the local police?
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Is there an equivalent mechanism in the USA, and what is the FBI's role? Are their powers to seize lawfully-owned firearms greater than those of the local police?
Short answer: No.

Slightly longer answer: It depends on each individual state. But I'm not aware of any such mechanism. The only thing remotely close is the law prohibiting felons from having firearms.
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Short answer: No.

Slightly longer answer: It depends on each individual state. But I'm not aware of any such mechanism. The only thing remotely close is the law prohibiting felons from having firearms.
Thanks. I didn't think there was much US law enforcement would be able to do before any crime was committed (or maybe before his involuntary admission to a psychiatric unit).

So it looks as if all the FBI really could have done, had they acted on the tip they received last month, would have been to hope being visited by them would scare him into good behaviour.
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
Thanks. I didn't think there was much US law enforcement would be able to do before any crime was committed (or maybe before his involuntary admission to a psychiatric unit).

So it looks as if all the FBI really could have done, had they acted on the tip they received last month, would have been to hope being visited by them would scare him into good behaviour.
I hadn't really thought of it this way before, but really, in England one earns a firearms certificate. In the US one is de facto born with a firearms certificate and it takes something extraordinary to take it away.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
Clearly the FBI dropped the ball badly by not responding to reports about him last month but, assuming that the reports amounted to no more than people's concerns about his alarming posts on social media,
And how many alarming posts are they called about every month? 10,000? More?
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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When I bought a handgun years ago in Virginia, I had to pass a background investigation and wait 24 hours. Unfortunately, no such requirement exists for rifles.

As of right now, only convicted felons, people convicted of certain kinds of domestic violence, people who have an active restraining order against them, or have been committed to a mental institution are not allowed to have firearms. Cruz met absolutely none of those restrictions - and it's not like they do a background investigation to buy one anyway.
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:09 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Zaida, you keep saying compromise, and since you didn’t answer in the other thread I’ll ask you again here. Why are you calling the things you are suggesting a compromise, as if that’s the middle ground between two positions. As far as I can tell, the points you raise are among the suggestions people who want a little more regulation are asking for.

You make it sound like there is a significant and loud and powerful group that wants to ban and repossess all guns which would make the things you mention, like age restrictions, a compromise. Except there isn’t. The suggestions you are making are like, literally, the exact positions being put forward.

I think your ideas are quite reasonable and fair, I just can’t understand why you are representing them as if they are the sane middle ground between two opposites when it doesn’t appear that anyone is seriously suggesting a ban or gun grab. The argument is between status quo and some regulation like the ones you are suggesting.
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Old 02-19-2018, 03:54 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Here's the thing about buying guns legally.

There's a form you need to fill out, called a 4473. It has questions on it concerning convictions and mental health issues.

Further, FFLs do run federal background checks at the time of sale. They use the NICS system.

The problem that we're having is that the government isn't following up and prosecuting people that lie on the 4473. They're also not adding people to the NICS system that they should be.

The guy that got dishonorable discharge passed his check, because he wasn't in the system and should have been.
This kid that was expelled and quit counseling and was on the radar of police, social services, and the FBI, also should have been flagged in NICS.

Edit: Things like the "gun show loophole" are actually private sales, between two individuals, in states that allow private sales of guns. The government doesn't allow private sellers to do a NICS check (I suspect most would, if they were allowed), so your options are to pay an FFL to do the check for you, which sometimes costs more than the sale itself, or just shrug and hope you're selling to a decent human being.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:46 AM   #13 (permalink)
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The problem that we're having is that the government isn't following up and prosecuting people that lie on the 4473. They're also not adding people to the NICS system that they should be.
It is not quite as clear-cut as that. The government is not allowed to have computers to help with the processing of those forms. Guess whose bright idea that was and who lobbied for it? I will give you a hint. Three letters and three of them are NRA.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:12 AM   #14 (permalink)
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It is not quite as clear-cut as that. The government is not allowed to have computers to help with the processing of those forms. Guess whose bright idea that was and who lobbied for it? I will give you a hint. Three letters and three of them are NRA.
Actually, as far as I know, they lobbied against federal registration, which I agree with, but never against improving the NICS system, and never against dishing out penalties for lying on the form.
But I'm not an NRA member, so I may be out of the loop.

Either way, if there were real consequences, people would do it less, I suspect.
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:45 AM   #15 (permalink)
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People who want to own assault rifles should be forced to walk through their towns naked while having rotten fruit thrown at them by the other people of the city before being allowed
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:06 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I don't know about that, but maybe having a public registry of semi-auto rifle owners?
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:11 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Legal Curbs said to Hamper A.T.F. in Gun Inquiries

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When law enforcement officers recover a gun and serial number, workers at the bureau’s National Tracing Center here — a windowless warehouse-style building on a narrow road outside town — begin making their way through a series of phone calls, asking first the manufacturer, then the wholesaler and finally the dealer to search their files to identify the buyer of the firearm.

About a third of the time, the process involves digging through records sent in by companies that have closed, in many cases searching by hand through cardboard boxes filled with computer printouts, hand-scrawled index cards or even water-stained sheets of paper.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:15 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I know about the gun records mess, though, and it's definitely the NRA's doing.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:29 AM   #19 (permalink)
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This kid that was expelled and quit counseling and was on the radar of police, social services, and the FBI, also should have been flagged in NICS.
Who should have flagged what about Cruz with NCIS? The school either when they send him for counselling or expelled him, or the counselling services when he ceased attending (was attendance at counselling ordered by any court, or was it voluntary?) or the police when they were called to his house over incidents that didn't lead to any prosecution?

Plenty of people appear to have had what, with hindsight, seem good reasons for concern about Cruz having access to firearms. However, It's not clear to me from what I've read that any of these concerns would have been sufficient to debar him from legally purchasing guns and ammunition, and I'm hoping someone can clarify matters for me.

Wikipedia gives a list of categories of "prohibited persons" who are prevented from buying firearms by the NCIS check:
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A prohibited person is one who:
  • Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
  • Is under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
  • Is a fugitive from justice;
  • Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
  • Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution;
  • Is illegally or unlawfully in the United States;
  • Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
  • Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced U.S. citizenship;
  • Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner;
  • Has been convicted in any court of a "misdemeanor crime of domestic violence", a defined term in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(33)[19]
None of those seem to apply to Cruz, though I may be mistaken.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:33 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I know about the gun records mess, though, and it's definitely the NRA's doing.
From the article:
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under current laws the bureau is prohibited from creating a federal registry of gun transactions. So while detectives on television tap a serial number into a computer and instantly identify the buyer of a firearm, the reality could not be more different.

When law enforcement officers recover a gun and serial number, workers at the bureau’s National Tracing Center here — a windowless warehouse-style building on a narrow road outside town — begin making their way through a series of phone calls, asking first the manufacturer, then the wholesaler and finally the dealer to search their files to identify the buyer of the firearm.

About a third of the time, the process involves digging through records sent in by companies that have closed, in many cases searching by hand through cardboard boxes filled with computer printouts, hand-scrawled index cards or even water-stained sheets of paper.

In an age when data is often available with a few keystrokes, the A.T.F. is forced to follow this manual routine because the idea of establishing a central database of gun transactions has been rejected by lawmakers in Congress, who have sided with the National Rifle Association, which argues that such a database poses a threat to the Second Amendment. In other countries, gun rights groups argue, governments have used gun registries to confiscate the firearms of law-abiding citizens.
Evernote link to NYT article.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:41 AM   #21 (permalink)
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The "argument" I have heard is that making a database of gun owners would create a database of targets.

Who is the target is debatable, either its gun owners, because guns have a high resale value on the street, or non gun owners, because they are un protected.

Not saying this is justified, just putting it out there.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:52 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Is there an equivalent mechanism in the USA, and what is the FBI's role? Are their powers to seize lawfully-owned firearms greater than those of the local police?
Not that I know of. Unfortunately the wrong people hold guns to be more important than anything and would clutch their pearls at the idea of any agency taking guns from someone for any reason.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:02 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Actually, as far as I know, they lobbied against federal registration, which I agree with, but never against improving the NICS system
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...-gun-laws-nra/

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Two of the riders effectively ban consolidation and computerization of records. One limits access and use of crime gun trace data, while another undermines the credibility of whatever trace data are released.
Not in that quote but, yes, the NRA pushed for those riders.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:32 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
Who should have flagged what about Cruz with NCIS? The school either when they send him for counselling or expelled him, or the counselling services when he ceased attending (was attendance at counselling ordered by any court, or was it voluntary?) or the police when they were called to his house over incidents that didn't lead to any prosecution?

Plenty of people appear to have had what, with hindsight, seem good reasons for concern about Cruz having access to firearms. However, It's not clear to me from what I've read that any of these concerns would have been sufficient to debar him from legally purchasing guns and ammunition, and I'm hoping someone can clarify matters for me.

Wikipedia gives a list of categories of "prohibited persons" who are prevented from buying firearms by the NCIS check:


None of those seem to apply to Cruz, though I may be mistaken.
I was under the impression he's had domestic violence issues, as well as the mental defect, thanks to his counseling.
Either way, the NICS is woefully lacking in a lot of areas though.

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https://www.motherjones.com/politics...-gun-laws-nra/



Not in that quote but, yes, the NRA pushed for those riders.
Right, they're against registration. We already agreed on that. Which isn't too unreasonable, really.
That said, you don't need a computer to inflict penalties on people for falsifying forms.
Joe Biden told the NRA "We don't have time to prosecute people that lie on the form" when the NRA pushed for enforcing the 10 years in prison part of the law.

Apparently it's an ongoing problem:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attor...eview-national

I'd really like to see existing laws improved and enforced better, many of which the NRA, and gun owners agree with.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:50 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gadget Portal View Post
Right, they're against registration. We already agreed on that. Which isn't too unreasonable, really.
That said, you don't need a computer to inflict penalties on people for falsifying forms.
Joe Biden told the NRA "We don't have time to prosecute people that lie on the form" when the NRA pushed for enforcing the 10 years in prison part of the law.

Apparently it's an ongoing problem:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attor...eview-national

I'd really like to see existing laws improved and enforced better, many of which the NRA, and gun owners agree with.
You had said they had not opposed the system to do checks. The article says the exact opposite and confirms what I (and others) are saying. They opposed letting you use a computer to do those checks. Not only do you have a short time to say no to a check but you can not even computerize the records. I think there is a Michael Moore film (or was it someone else) out there that made that point by trying to gift the building they operate out of with old PCs.
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