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Old 02-19-2018, 09:59 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I was under the impression he's had domestic violence issues, as well as the mental defect, thanks to his counseling.
Either way, the NICS is woefully lacking in a lot of areas though..
From what I've read, the police were called to his house multiple times because of his volatile temper, but it's not clear to me that any of these visits ever resulted in a criminal conviction of any sort, which is what would lead to his being entered in the database.

Similarly, the fact he was required (by whom and under what circumstances?) required to attend counselling does not, it seems to me, come anywhere close to "Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution". Clearly he'd never been committed to any mental institution and never does a court seem to have declared him "a mental defective".

From what I've read it seems to me that, even if everyone had done their jobs properly, there doesn't seem to have been anything anyone could do to prevent him buying an AK-15 and ammunition or to take them away from him. He was acting well within his legal rights by owning and keeping them, even though I'm sure the local police, if asked if they thought it was safe for him to possess such an arsenal, would have said "hell, no!"
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:04 AM   #27 (permalink)
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To me personally, this is utterly ridiculous. We expect more of people owning vehicles than we do these weapons. We have to register them, we have to file all public and private sales with the appropriate agency, we have to carry insurance, and we have to have a license to drive them. When used irresponsibly that license gets taken away.

I believe it's perfectly reasonable to expect the same of these owners. It's a small price to pay for their ability to play-act Rambo on weekends at the firing range, using that as their excuse for why they should remain legal while their toy of choice is currently being used to massacre members of the public. Fine, you want them legal, then expect to follow reasonable laws.

The all out refusal by some (most notably the NRA) to require even the smallest modicum of responsibility is endangering the ownership of these weapons altogether. Personally, I would have no problem whatsoever with returning to the assault weapons ban of 1994.

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Old 02-19-2018, 10:11 AM   #28 (permalink)
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You had said they had not opposed the system to do checks. The article says the exact opposite and confirms what I (and others) are saying. They opposed letting you use a computer to do those checks. Not only do you have a short time to say no to a check but you can not even computerize the records. I think there is a Michael Moore film (or was it someone else) out there that made that point by trying to gift the building they operate out of with old PCs.
A computer database of 4473's is a gun registry, since the make and model is on the 4473 page 2- that's what was being opposed.
Ideally we'd have a database of just page 1, which is the really important stuff. Perhaps if they separated it into two forms, they'd get better results. I don't know.

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To me personally, this is utterly ridiculous. We expect more of people owning vehicles than we do these weapons. We have to register them, we have to file all public and private sales with the appropriate agency, we have to carry insurance, and we have to have a license to drive them. When used irresponsibly that license gets taken away.

I believe it's perfectly reasonable to expect the same of these owners. It's a small price to pay for their ability to play-act Rambo on weekends at the firing range, using that as their excuse for why they should remain legal while their toy of choice is currently being used to massacre members of the public. Fine, you want them legal, then expect to follow reasonable laws.
I've said this for years, that gun licenses (I have one) should be more like car licenses. Nobody on either side actually wants that though. One side just wants the restrictions of a license, the other side wants the benefits. Nobody seems to want to actually compromise.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:14 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Nobody on either side actually wants that though. One side just wants the restrictions of a license, the other side wants the benefits. Nobody seems to want to actually compromise.
I don't understand this. What specific points that would apply to gun licenses (ones similar to car licenses) are you suggesting the side that "wants the restrictions of a license" doesn't want to compromise on?
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:14 AM   #30 (permalink)
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One side just wants the restrictions of a license, the other side wants the benefits.
Can you expand upon what you mean by this?

ETA: Sorry, Argent and I must have both been wondering the same thing at the same time.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:37 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I don't understand this. What specific points that would apply to gun licenses (ones similar to car licenses) are you suggesting the side that "wants the restrictions of a license" doesn't want to compromise on?
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Can you expand upon what you mean by this?

ETA: Sorry, Argent and I must have both been wondering the same thing at the same time.
There are a few examples, but a good one is national repricosity- it's been in the news lately, even.
For example, I have a firearm license in Massachusetts that requires a background check, training, regular renewals, and would be revoked if I misbehave, exactly like a driver's license. However, many states will not recognize it, even though they're happy to recognize my MA driver's license.
A bill was proposed that would make firearm licenses good in all states; it's been getting a lot of opposition.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:06 AM   #32 (permalink)
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A computer database of 4473's is a gun registry, since the make and model is on the 4473 page 2- that's what was being opposed.
Ideally we'd have a database of just page 1, which is the really important stuff. Perhaps if they separated it into two forms, they'd get better results. I don't know.
Go ahead and ask the NRA about a proposition of splitting it into two forms. I just would suggest not holding your breath on them agreeing the current page 1 should sail through.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:11 AM   #33 (permalink)
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A bill was proposed that would make firearm licenses good in all states; it's been getting a lot of opposition.
That is because the requirements are wildly different in different states, unlike driver's licenses. DLs are state controlled of course, but there is some standardization since everyone has to use the same federal highway system (plus other programs like real id).

Some states have some hard-won protections, in others (paging VA) you pretty much get an OC and CC issued to you when you move there.

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Old 02-19-2018, 11:33 AM   #34 (permalink)
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There are a few examples, but a good one is national repricosity- it's been in the news lately, even.
For example, I have a firearm license in Massachusetts that requires a background check, training, regular renewals, and would be revoked if I misbehave, exactly like a driver's license. However, many states will not recognize it, even though they're happy to recognize my MA driver's license.
A bill was proposed that would make firearm licenses good in all states; it's been getting a lot of opposition.
I don't see why that's a problem.

The situation isn't comparable to that of driving licences, where all states require pretty similar standards of drivers to issue a licence and where mutual recognition is necessary because otherwise movement between states would be impossibly restricted.

In contrast, as I understand it, New York State, for example, don't want any civilians, whether residents of New York State or elsewhere, owning firearms save in very exceptional circumstances.

Unless Massachusetts' criteria for issuing a gun licence are at least as restrictive as those in force in New York State, I don't see why reciprocity even should be an issue and even then I'd say it's a matter of pubic policy for the individual state whether or not it wants people to have guns while they are in the state.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:41 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I don't see why that's a problem.

The situation isn't comparable to that of driving licences, where all states require pretty similar standards of drivers to issue a licence and where mutual recognition is necessary because otherwise movement between states would be impossibly restricted.

In contrast, as I understand it, New York State, for example, don't want any civilians, whether residents of New York State or elsewhere, owning firearms save in very exceptional circumstances.

Unless Massachusetts' criteria for issuing a gun licence are at least as restrictive as those in force in New York State, I don't see why reciprocity even should be an issue and even then I'd say it's a matter of pubic policy for the individual state whether or not it wants people to have guns while they are in the state.
I brought it up because I was asked to provide an example of where neither side can agree on licenses, even when they both agree they should be issued.
So that's my reply, is all. Again, I personally like the idea of everyone having to get a license for guns- but what would be the point if other states could just ignore it anyway?
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:47 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Have a license, great. Reciprocity is a nonstarter though and people have told you why.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:55 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Have a license, great. Reciprocity is a nonstarter though and people have told you why.
See, that's what I mean. Why do you want gun owners to get a license, if you're not going to respect it anyway?
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:01 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I brought it up because I was asked to provide an example of where neither side can agree on licenses, even when they both agree they should be issued.
So that's my reply, is all. Again, I personally like the idea of everyone having to get a license for guns- but what would be the point if other states could just ignore it anyway?
I'd say there's every point in all states requiring a licence to practice law, so people know they are dealing with competent legal advisers in a particular jurisdiction, even though, for obvious reasons, a licence to practice law in Massachusetts doesn't necessarily guarantee rights of audience in California and vice versa.

Would you not agree?
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:11 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I'd say there's every point in all states requiring a licence to practice law, so people know they are dealing with competent legal advisers in a particular jurisdiction, even though, for obvious reasons, a licence to practice law in Massachusetts doesn't necessarily guarantee rights of audience in California and vice versa.

Would you not agree?
I don't disagree.
I was merely trying to play devil's advocate and provide an example of where Repubs and Dems disagree, even when they agree.

The driver's license was the situation presented, so I ran with that.
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:54 PM   #40 (permalink)
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A bill was proposed that would make firearm licenses good in all states; it's been getting a lot of opposition.
I suspect that if gun licenses were similar to drivers licenses already, with every state already requiring tests and renewals and third party insurance and so on, there would be little pushback.

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I brought it up because I was asked to provide an example of where neither side can agree on licenses, even when they both agree they should be issued.
Complete nonsequiter.

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The driver's license was the situation presented, so I ran with that.
But you didn't present an alternative that was similar to driver's licenses.
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:58 PM   #41 (permalink)
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You license a driver, you licence a car. You connect them together.

I am not sure why this isn't already done with guns. Add in a regular renewal on both, mostly to attest "I still own this".

Your gun gets used in a crime, you get to alibi out or whatever just like if your car was stolen and used to run people down. Especially if you never reported it lost/stolen.
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:59 PM   #42 (permalink)
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See, that's what I mean. Why do you want gun owners to get a license, if you're not going to respect it anyway?
The problem is not respecting it in the state it was issued in but respecting it in other states. Laws vary WILDLY in different states. It is like asking for a fishing license in one state to be valid in another. NH Fish & Game will applaud you for having a Massachusetts fishing license but it still is not valid when they check.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:46 PM   #43 (permalink)
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IMHO: People that own firearms should be paying annual insurance and property taxes on every registered weapon in their name. Steeply discounted if their re-occurring 'responsible gun ownership' certification is current, and/or if their weapons are certified 'non-operational'.

If they can't certify a transfer of ownership, destruction or forfeiture of a weapon, they should have no choice but to continue paying slowly depreciating property tax on it for the rest of their life, or until someone else registers the weapon as theirs.

The goal is to make people reconsider whether the security of owning a firearm is worth the long term financial liability that comes with it.

Use some of the proceeds to buy back weapons from owners wishing to shed their tax/insurance burden.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:07 PM   #44 (permalink)
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The right to drive a car/have a driver's license is not enshrined in our constitution, the right to own/bear arms is.

And what is licensed/permitted in most states is the right to carry a concealed weapon. I heard on the radio this week that to get a concealed weapon permit in NJ you have to appear before a judge and basically explain why you really really really reall REALLY NEED to be allowed a concealed weapon permit. Having a concealed weapon permit is a completely different kettle of fish from simply owning a gun and having it in your house.

When I was in Virginia all I really had to do to get a concealed weapon permit was take a gun safety class.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:06 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I suspect that if gun licenses were similar to drivers licenses already, with every state already requiring tests and renewals and third party insurance and so on, there would be little pushback.

Complete nonsequiter.

But you didn't present an alternative that was similar to driver's licenses.
Actually, not every state requires insurance, and the driver's test varies wildly from state to state- sometimes it varies even in the same state, depending on the town where you get it.

But, whatever. We've proven my point anyway.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:27 PM   #46 (permalink)
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The right to drive a car/have a driver's license is not enshrined in our constitution, the right to own/bear arms is.
All guns are arms, not all arms are guns. Yet, there are plenty of laws about carrying swords, or axes, or any number of less massive-deadly weapons that ARE controlled. So, not this does not wash.

Besides, how could cars be in our constitution, they weren't even invented yet.

But back to the second - it specifically says: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

So, let's break this down. Regulated - to regulate, in other words, have laws pertaining to the formation of militias, which was how our military force was done until after the Civil War [just look at any battle memorials]. So, nothing forbidding licensing of guns there.

The second part says that, basically, the US government shall make no laws keeping people from having arms, both to remain free in the event of Tyranny [see also the other 9 Bill of Rights Amendments], but also because back then, people still hunted for food, or to protect their food from wild critters, as well as their families because most folks didn't live in cities, and thus, there was probably not a large cop presence.

But, it does specify ARMS and not GUNS. Thus, if swords and knives, and axes, and speaks and knitting needles can be considered contraband and have laws prohibiting people from carrying them in certain places in this country? Then guns should not be exempt, especially since you can kill more people in less time with them.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:59 PM   #47 (permalink)
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The right to drive a car/have a driver's license is not enshrined in our constitution, the right to own/bear arms is.
Please to show where the Constitution gives you a right to own an AR-15 assault rifle.

Looking at the Constitution, I see it also enshrined the idea that 'certain people' should only represent three fifths of all other persons. But only in regards to taxation and state representation in Congress, of course. The rest of the time, they remained property.

Sort of like guns.

Hey, maybe we should give guns the vote.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:00 PM   #48 (permalink)
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The "argument" I have heard is that making a database of gun owners would create a database of targets.

Who is the target is debatable, either its gun owners, because guns have a high resale value on the street, or non gun owners, because they are un protected.

Not saying this is justified, just putting it out there.
This actually makes a good bit of sense, especially given how data centers around here have become leaky sieves. A national database of gun owners (or, by omission, a registry of unarmed residents) would be a criminal's wet dream. And I'm sure he'd have no problem finding a hacker willing to get it for him.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:04 PM   #49 (permalink)
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A national database of gun owners (or, by omission, a registry of unarmed residents) would be a criminal's wet dream.
If you want to know who gun nuts actually fear having such a database falling into the hands of, see Red Dawn. Or alternatively, Obama's FEMA Camps.
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Old 02-20-2018, 05:09 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Kind of like a database of people who own expensive cars?
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