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Old 01-24-2018, 08:20 AM   #26 (permalink)
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There's a short story I read that I'm completely unable to recall who wrote it, with a bunch of aliens who are predators and natural libertarians. They're at a medieval level of civilization, with a wild west theme. One of them has been taken off planet by the humans who have space cities and flying cars and immortality drugs and so on, and comes back and uses advanced human socialist tricks to con her town into paving main street... and at the end of the story she realizes she's brought doom on her people's freedom and stuff.

So, paved streets are socialism.
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Old 01-24-2018, 08:53 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Despite the thread title, i can still find no measure of understanding in any of the posts here!
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Old 01-24-2018, 09:02 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Oh, you want the manifesto?

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We are coerced by our fellow human beings. Since they have the ability to choose to do otherwise, our condition need not be thus. Coercion is immoral, inefficient and unnecessary for human life and fulfillment. Those who wish to be supine as their neighbors prey on them are free to so choose; this manifesto is for those who choose otherwise: to fight back.

To combat coercion, one must understand it. More importantly, one must understand what one is fighting for as much as what one is fighting against. Blind reaction goes in all directions negative to the source of oppression and disperses opportunity; pursuit of a common goal focuses the opponents and allows formation of coherent strategy and tactics.

Diffuse coercion is optimally handled by local, immediate self-defense. Though the market may develop larger-scale businesses for protection and restoration, random threats of violence can only be dealt with roots of mysticism and delusions planted deep in the victims’ thinking, requires a grand strategy and a cataclysmic point of historical singularity: Revolution.

Such an institution of coercion, centralizing immorality, directing theft and murder, and coordinating oppression on a scale inconceivable by random criminality exists. It is the Mob of mobs, Gang of gangs, Conspiracy of conspiracies. It has murdered more people in a few recent years than all the deaths in history before that time; it has stolen in a few recent years more than all the wealth produced in history to that time; it has deluded - for its survival - more minds in a few recent years than all the irrationality of history to that time. Our Enemy, The State.
http://www.anarchism.net/newlibertarianmanifesto.htm
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Old 01-24-2018, 09:20 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Of course it never strikes Rand's followers of the absurdity of a "self made" heroine who inherited a railroad: she is in an industry built on public subsidies and corruption, and didn't even accomplish that herself.
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Old 01-24-2018, 09:20 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Maybe a plausible solution for McArthy in Alaska.
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Old 01-24-2018, 09:40 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Of course it never strikes Rand's followers of the absurdity of a "self made" heroine who inherited a railroad: she is in an industry built on public subsidies and corruption, and didn't even accomplish that herself.
Which is exactly the thing that they missed about the "you did not make that" comment. Yes, they (or their family) may have made the factory or whatever themselves but they used public roads and such.
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:11 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:28 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Wait. Are we talking libertarian or Libertarian?
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:41 AM   #34 (permalink)
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What the?

Do they ACTUALLY plan to create a gofundme for each pothole? Can you even find a less efficient way to solve that problem without delving into hilarity?
But create a go fund me on what? Their locally run BBS? because I don't see the internet functioning in their fruitopia.
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:43 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Libs seem to believe that those who resort to harmful/disrespectful actions will be =individuals= that their free market/honor system/neighborhood watch can dispatch easily enough.
Forgetting how easily the Robber Barron / Tyrant can hire protectors.
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:47 AM   #36 (permalink)
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The whole basis of libertarianism seems to me utterly naive.

A moment's thought should tell people that you can't have a functioning free market without quite a sophisticated system of enforcement to back it up -- the market can't function unless people can take goods too and from the market without being robbed en route, so you need decent roads, well policed.

When you get to the market you need someone to enforce a common set of trading standards -- weights and measures, product purity and the like -- and also a system to resolve disputes between traders.

More generally, you need some method of sorting out disputes over land and resources -- the sort of property disputes that keep courts busy all the time -- and also some way of of sorting out what happens when I wreck your farm by using the river on which you depend for water to dispose of the toxic waste from my factory.

Furthermore, in any society of any size comprising self-directed individuals, possessed of free will, trying to go about their own lives and following their own agendas, people are going to come into conflict.

Most of the time, of course, people can sort out their disputes between themselves, but when they can't, you need an impartial and dispassionate arbiter to sort it out for them, and with the ability to enforce its decision if necessary.

The alternative is pretty horrendous. As Thomas Hobbes explained all those years ago,
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it is manifest that, during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war, and such a war as is of every man against every man. For ‘war’ consisteth not in battle only or the act of fighting, but in a tract of time wherein the will to contend by battle is sufficiently known, and therefore the notion of ‘time’ is to be considered in the nature of war, as it is in the nature of weather. For as the nature of foul weather lieth not in a shower or two of rain but in an inclination thereto of many days together, so the nature of war consisteth not in actual fighting but in the known disposition thereto during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary. All other time is ‘peace.’

Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time or war where every man is enemy to every man, the same is consequent to the time wherein men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them withal. In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain, and consequently no culture of the earth, no navigation nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea, no commodious building, no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force, no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time, no arts, no letters, no society, and, which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:53 AM   #37 (permalink)
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But create a go fund me on what? Their locally run BBS? because I don't see the internet functioning in their fruitopia.
Forget the net, how will they create the $$ they plan to use? Not do the labor to get it but creating (and possibly manufacturing) the actual unit of currency.
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:55 AM   #38 (permalink)
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The whole basis of libertarianism seems to me utterly naive.
The philosophic basis of libertarianism is based on a very tightly defined definition of coercion that excludes any indirect coercion where money is involved (but is happy to include all other indirect coercion) described in the quote from the NLM above.

It's basically religious.

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A moment's thought should tell people that you can't have a functioning free market without quite a sophisticated system of enforcement to back it up
The NLM goes on to describe how insurance companies... that enforce non-coercion (theft is coercion, so the insurance company gets to coerce the thief back if the thief's insurance company doesn't cooperate)... will crystallize out of the market as they do. It's really quite sophisticated.

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When you get to the market you need someone to enforce a common set of trading standards -- weights and measures, product purity and the like -- and also a system to resolve disputes between traders.
Insurance companies!

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More generally, you need some method of sorting out disputes over land and resources -- the sort of property disputes that keep courts busy all the time -- and also some way of of sorting out what happens when I wreck your farm by using the river on which you depend for water to dispose of the toxic waste from my factory.
Insurance companies! Geeze, how many times do I have to say it?

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Furthermore, in any society of any size comprising self-directed individuals, possessed of free will, trying to go about their own lives and following their own agendas, people are going to come into conflict.
Insurance companies arbitrate disputes, too. Can't you see?

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Forget the net, how will they create the $$ they plan to use? Not do the labor to get it but creating (and possibly manufacturing) the actual unit of currency.
Ounces of gold. Seriously.
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Old 01-24-2018, 11:00 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
The philosophic basis of libertarianism is based on a very tightly defined definition of coercion that excludes any indirect coercion where money is involved (but is happy to include all other indirect coercion) described in the quote from the NLM above.

It's basically religious.

The NLM goes on to describe how insurance companies... that non-coercively enforce non-coercion... will crystallize out of the market as they do. It's really quite sophisticated.

Insurance companies!

Insurance companies! Geeze, how many times do I have to say it?

Insurance companies arbitrate disputes, too. Can't you see?

Ounces of gold. Seriously.
Based on what I hear from friends in the USA who deal with health insurance companies, both as customers and as providers of medical care, it would appear that few libertarians can ever had many dealings with US insurers.
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Old 01-24-2018, 11:13 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Have you ever seen a toddler throw a tantrum?

That's libertarianism in a nutshell.
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Old 01-24-2018, 11:16 AM   #41 (permalink)
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A moment's thought
You have found the hole in their cunning plan.
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Old 01-24-2018, 11:16 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Have you ever watched a Mad Max film?
In their egoist minds they think they are this



In reality they behave more like this



Drank to much of the brave frontier, self reliant, wild west cool-aid mythos.
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Old 01-24-2018, 11:30 AM   #43 (permalink)
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The trouble with Libertarians is you have to be pretty specific. Anarcho-Libertarians, those espousing non-hierarchical, anti-capitalist ideas are vastly different that American Libertarians which are typical anarcho-capitalist varieties. When people make fun of Libertarians in America, that's typically what they are aiming at.


Even worse is that Libertarianism in the United States has some pretty good ideas. They are, like classical libertarians, non-hierarchical, anti-war, anti-coercion, etc. The big issue though is they are pro-Capitalism which is massively hierarchical and relies on coercion to function. Actually intelligent Libertarian scholars never really address this directly and hand wave a lot of "human choice" and "rational actors" without ever noting the very real issues of disparity that capitalism relies on and the huge amount of coercion it relies on. Another issue is that they "blame the government" for being involved in the "free market" but fail to recognize that capitalism cannot exist without government.


And those are the good ones.


The bad ones are really war-hawk Republicans who don't mind smoking a joint every once in awhile and are typically authoritarian as it comes when it comes to promoting corporate greed. Most of them also wouldn't know names like Proudhon, Bastiat, and Hayek if you slapped them in the face with their works. 99% of all the Libertarians I've run into fall under this category.
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Old 01-24-2018, 11:51 AM   #44 (permalink)
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The cows creating the paths.
And how are you going to get your cows back when they've wandered into the next parish, Reivers perhaps ?
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:03 PM   #45 (permalink)
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To really understand Libertarianism from the inside, as it were, you need to read some moderately well written Libertarian SF. L Neil Smith's "The Probability Broach" and Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned" are pretty much the peak of the genre, but a lot of other North American SF writers are pushing the same idea.

The basic idea is that technological progress is driven by the engine of raw capitalism unchained by regulation and government meddling, and the United States relative lack of regulation is the only thing keeping technology advancing. If the US collapses into the same kind of nanny state they have in Europe we'll never get our space cities and flying cars and immortality drugs.

The fact that we're looking at least another 70 years of stagnating wages, inequality, and appalling poverty in the midst of plenty... like we had at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution... is a cost worth paying if it means a geek utopia for our great great grandchildren in the 2100s.

Obviously this ignores the fact that technological innovation and profit and all that are actual things outside the US, but handwave handwave handwave.
Clearly the inherent dangers of embracing a political philosophy that works just great in fictional worlds where everyone behaves just as the author wants them to haven't occurred to Libertarians.
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:09 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
Based on what I hear from friends in the USA who deal with health insurance companies, both as customers and as providers of medical care, it would appear that few libertarians can ever had many dealings with US insurers.
"That's because of State intervention. Libertaria's Insurance Companies will be different, and non-coercive!"

Also, I made a mistake in the previous post, it's *grams* of gold, not *ounces* of gold. I recall one book where everyone ostentatiously talked about how many "gAu" they were spending.

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Clearly the inherent dangers of embracing a political philosophy that works just great in fictional worlds where everyone behaves just as the author wants them to haven't occurred to Libertarians.
BUT NON-COERCION!

Plus everyone goes armed all the time, except for people in Vinge's world who've signed up a non-right-to-bear-arms insurance company like Al's Protection Racket.

Oh, hey, The Ungoverned is online free to read at Baen Books: https://www.baen.com/Chapters/141652...520724___4.htm

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Al's Protection Racket operated out of Manhattan, Kansas. Despite the name, it was a small, insurance-oriented police service with about 20,000 customers, all within 100 kilometers of the main ship. But apparently "Al" was some kind of humorist: His ads had a gangster motif with his cops dressed like 20th century hoodlums. Wil Brierson guessed that it was all part of the nostalgia thing. Even the Michigan State Police—Wil's outfit—capitalized on the public's feeling of trust for old names, old traditions.

Even so, there's something more dignified about a company with a name like "Michigan State Police," thought Brierson as he brought his flier down on the pad next to Al's HQ.

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Old 01-24-2018, 12:26 PM   #47 (permalink)
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"That's because of State intervention. Libertaria's Insurance Companies will be different, and non-coercive!"

Also, I made a mistake in the previous post, it's *grams* of gold, not *ounces* of gold. I recall one book where everyone ostentatiously talked about how many "gAu" they were spending.
A friend of mine is a registered lactation consultant in Massachusetts, helping nursing mothers who are having problems breastfeeding. A lot of large US insurance companies cover this as part of their maternity package, and my friend has for several years been registered as an approved provider by several major insurance companies in the state.

Despite the fact she's an approved provider and has been working with these companies for several years -- so she knows very well what the rules are and how to go about billing the insurers -- she says that every month, without fail, when she submits her invoices to the insurance companies for reimbursement, each company will refuse, without explanation, a certain number of them.

Accordingly, every month, she phones up the insurers, asks to speak to a manager in the billing department and go over the claims, asking what's wrong with each one. And each month, without fail, she's told, of each claim, "Nope, nothing wrong with that. Sorry. Must have have been a mistake at our end -- sorry about that. We'll get you paid right away".

And this keeps on happening, month after month, to about the same percentage of claims, per month, per company.

The only explanation we can think of is that the insurers hope service providers like her will eventually get tired of having to waste a day or so each month chasing up wrongly-declined bills and stop taking insurance work altogether.
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:29 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Also, I made a mistake in the previous post, it's *grams* of gold, not *ounces* of gold. I recall one book where everyone ostentatiously talked about how many "gAu" they were spending.
Can someone more in tune with the tenets of libertarianism explain the "gold standard" to me. All I know is that there is nothing special about gold as a commodity, the value of gold fluctuates as per the market's whims, no different from Kansas Winter Wheat, Lean Hogs or Sugar #11. So why is this something you'd want to peg the value of currency to? Why not, say, the "North Sea Crude standard"?
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:30 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Clearly the inherent dangers of embracing a political philosophy that works just great in fictional worlds where everyone behaves just as the author wants them to haven't occurred to Libertarians.
Exactly, also the fact that rarely are fictional worlds detailed enough to show every flaw. If you are only looking at a few millionaire protagonists in a room things may look great but as soon as you step out of the house ...
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:40 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Insurance Companies
So basically, libertarianism is the wet dream of ever useless Middleman Middle Manager with no actual marketable skills since it would mean less regulation keeping them from skimming everything they can off of everything.
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