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Old 01-20-2018, 08:44 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Old 01-20-2018, 09:01 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BilliJo Aldrin View Post
Talking about burning it, why do we subsidize the production of ethanol from corn.

Here's a general rule, if the government has to subsidize something, it must suck, because if it was any good private business would have already done it
Ahem... From the Financial Times, October 1 2017:
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A legal battle over the future of the US electricity system is looming after the Trump administration shocked the industry with proposals for new subsidies for coal-fired and nuclear power plants.

If implemented, the plan could mean the most radical shake-up of the market in decades.

Rick Perry, the energy secretary, on Friday sent a proposal to the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission calling for payments for power plants that provide “essential energy and ancillary reliability services” — and defined these in a way that means only coal and nuclear generators are likely to qualify.
More on existing Federal coal subsidies here.

TL;dr I think you will find that all forms of energy production are subsidised in most countries one way or another.
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Old 01-20-2018, 09:15 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Old 01-20-2018, 09:29 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BilliJo Aldrin View Post
My bad, I thought coal was coal, but why don't we save our metallurigical coal for our own factories?
The two types of coal are more commonly referred to as anthracite and lignite. Anthracite is commonly used in Bessemer steel furnaces but can also be used for somewhat cleaner (for coal) power generation.
Power plant operators usually use lignite as it is much cheaper and more common. Lignite is however much dirtier with high sulfur mercury and radio-active contents. Lignite is also much softer which means more coal dust when jostled during loading, unloading, and transport resulting explosion hazards.Returning to the Steam Age?

If the government is referring to anthracite as metallurgical coal then they are implying that all the anthracite exported is used for steel production something that is likely but not necessarily true. That also implies (possibly falsely) a cap on coal export as steel production is not expanding wildly.

Looking up the definitions I apparently don't know what i'm talking about. More editing to come after research.

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Old 01-21-2018, 07:47 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BilliJo Aldrin View Post

Here's a general rule, if the government has to subsidize something, it must suck, because if it was any good private business would have already done it
Lol. Idiot uninformed American prime example #1. Hate to break the news to you, but there isn't a part of the energy sector that isn't subsidized in some way.
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Old 01-21-2018, 07:57 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BilliJo Aldrin View Post
hmmmm?

If Trump is going to undo environmental restrictions on coal use that's 100% fine with me.

Man made global warming is just one big scam anyway.
Right wing political correctness is alive and well with this one.
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Old 01-21-2018, 08:20 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Right wing political correctness is alive and well with this one.
If it were not for the hurt it would cause other people I would LOVE to see their reaction if every government subsidy went poof.
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Old 01-21-2018, 08:57 AM   #33 (permalink)
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If it were not for the hurt it would cause other people I would LOVE to see their reaction if every government subsidy went poof.
And that's what the more extreme Libertarians want.

It's no wonder BJ is pro-coal, they'd love returning to the 1800's with robber barons, child labor, social inequality, snake oil salesmen, and rampant pollution just to prove "consumers using their dollars would sort it out without government intervention."

IMHO, steampunk fantasy-land isn't a good basis for a political party.
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Old 01-21-2018, 09:00 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Beezle Warburton View Post
And that's what the more extreme Libertarians want.

It's no wonder BJ is pro-coal, they'd love returning to the 1800's with robber barons, child labor, social inequality, snake oil salesmen, and rampant pollution just to prove "consumers using their dollars would sort it out without government intervention."

IMHO, steampunk fantasy-land isn't a good basis for a political party.
No, they would not love it (unless they are in the 0.001%). They just THINK they would love it.
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Old 01-21-2018, 09:30 AM   #35 (permalink)
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No, they would not love it (unless they are in the 0.001%). They just THINK they would love it.
I'd love to stuff them in a time machine and let them find out
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Old 01-21-2018, 09:51 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I'd love to stuff them in a time machine and let them find out
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:13 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
I see, by the way, that apparently there are two types of coal:https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...e=coal_imports

So I'm not sure -- because I just don't know -- whether it makes sense to use metallurgical coal in power plants.
Coal is a natural product, and comes in a wide range of purity and hardness. The higher purity/hardness type (Anthracite) is what gets used for steel production. Turning iron ore (iron oxide i.e. rust) into iron requires removing the oxygen. In a blast furnace this is done by partially burning coal to make carbon monoxide (CO), which at high temperatures steals another oxygen from the iron oxide to make CO2 + metallic iron. Steel is iron with a certain amount of carbon and other alloying elements added.

The higher grade coal both introduces fewer contaminants, and is strong enough to not collapse and let the blast of air through to maintain combustion. It otherwise burns just as well in power plants, but has more value in making steel, so that is where it preferentially goes.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:23 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BilliJo Aldrin View Post
My bad, I thought coal was coal, but why don't we save our metallurigical coal for our own factories?
The US has been industrialized for long time, so we have lots of old steel scrap that gets recycled into new steel. It takes less energy to remelt scrap than reduce (remove the oxygen from) new iron ore. Developing countries don't have lots of old scrap, so they have to make a lot more new steel from scratch.

Unless you run a coal mine, there is no "we" here. Mine owners will sell their metallurigal-grade coal to whoever needs it, domestic and foreign, for making steel or for burning in power plants. Whoever pays the highest price (which is foreign steel production mostly) is who gets it.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:29 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Has dear leader actually looked at how much of each energy source is being used? It is the 21st century now. Less people every year want to build energy plants with a high level of pollution when there is an option for something like LNG or using a renewable resource. Not to mention companies now tend to pay attention to what will give them the bigger PR boost.
The main reason coal has dropped from 50 to 30% of US power production in the last 10 years is cost. Natural gas, solar, and wind are all cheaper than coal these days. Utilities are driven by profit like every other business, so they are switching. Building the US's electric capacity took decades, and replacing it also will take decades. We are one decade into the transition.

Switching away from coal has the nice side benefits of less CO2 and less other kinds of pollution, but the main driver has been money.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:30 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BilliJo Aldrin View Post

Oh, and what do we do with all that evil coal that we aren't burning?

Leave it in the ground so it doesn't contribute to "man made global warming"?

Nooooo... We sell it to China, Japan and India for pennies a ton so THEY can burn it.

*rolls eyes*
This is interesting:
Quote:
U.S. coal exports to Asia are almost certainly price-dependent, given they dropped off sharply when Asian coal prices fell for five consecutive years from 2011, but have started to recover as prices rallied in 2016 and maintained strength so far this year.

The Asian benchmark price for thermal coal, the weekly index at the Australian port of Newcastle, ended at $92.28 a tonne on July 28, largely steady from the $94.44 at the end of 2016, but almost double the $50.63 at the end of 2015.

At the current price U.S. coal can compete in Asia, especially on the U.S. east or Gulf coast to India route, but also on the California to China or North East Asia route.

Data from consultants CRU show that the weighted average business cost for U.S. thermal coal, or the price where 50 percent or more of operations in the country have positive cash flow, lies at $83.22 a tonne.
Reuters, 31 July 2017

That is, US coal exports to Asia are very price-sensitive and therefore fluctuate a lot, and the base price at which US exporters can make a profit is something around $83.22 a tonne including transport costs.

So where does the "pennies a ton" figure come from?

ETA: "Thermal coal" seems to be the cheaper lignite, which according to official figures, sold at an average of $22.36 a "short ton" (0.907185 of a metric tonne) in 2015 at the pithead, though the delivery costs, even within the USA, could easily be considerably higher than the base cost of the coal.

Last edited by Innula Zenovka; 01-21-2018 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:34 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BilliJo Aldrin View Post
We have coal reserves for at least 500 years. We need to build more coal plants instead of throwing millions away on solar panels and other ludicrous green initiates.

Oh, and what do we do with all that evil coal that we aren't burning?

Leave it in the ground so it doesn't contribute to "man made global warming"?

Nooooo... We sell it to China, Japan and India for pennies a ton so THEY can burn it.

*rolls eyes*
Do you know how much the fuel costs are for solar power installations? I'll give you a clue, they are zero. You never have to buy fuel to generate power with a solar installation. You do when you have a coal powered installation. Buy it, burn it, buy some more, on and on.

Guess which one costs a) more to build b) more to run and c) has higher fuel costs.

And that is all without any green considerations at all.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:47 AM   #42 (permalink)
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hmmmm?

If Trump is going to undo environmental restrictions on coal use that's 100% fine with me.

Man made global warming is just one big scam anyway.
I don't know how old you are, but I remember New York City when I was growing up, before pollution controls. It sucked pretty bad as far as air quality. Major cities in China are going through the same thing today.

As far as anthropogenic climate change, along with the increasing CO2 concentration in the atmosphere, the ratio of Carbon-12 to Carbon-13 is changing. Plants slightly prefer C-12 because the lighter atoms diffuse and react faster. Inorganic sources like volcanoes don't distinguish. So we know the increased CO2 comes from plant sources. The only sources of *enough* CO2 are fossil fuels (which came from plants originally) and deforestation. Both are caused by people.

As far as the greenhouse effect, the average temperature of the Earth is 30 degrees C higher than the Moon, even though we are the same distance from the Sun. Water is the primary greenhouse gas, because our planet is 70% ocean and the atmosphere is fairly saturated with water vapor. CO2 is the next contributor, but water content isn't changing, and CO2 is.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:47 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Unless you run a coal mine, there is no "we" here. Mine owners will sell their metallurigal-grade coal to whoever needs it, domestic and foreign, for making steel or for burning in power plants. Whoever pays the highest price (which is foreign steel production mostly) is who gets it.
It never gets old when people that use the logic 'our country has x, so why not keep it'. Clearly they do not know how commodities work.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:52 AM   #44 (permalink)
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TL;dr I think you will find that all forms of energy production are subsidised in most countries one way or another.
They are, because energy in various forms underlies most everything we do in modern society. Cheap, fresh food wouldn't be possible without fuel for tractors, transportation to get it to the store, and electricity for the in-store and in-home refrigerators.

Expensive food leads to riots from hungry people, just ask Marie Antoinette.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:53 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Daniel, others, don't even try with this chump. No doubt it's all been explained to him before - his ilk is impervious to logic and facts.
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:02 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Daniel, others, don't even try with this chump. No doubt it's all been explained to him before - his ilk is impervious to logic and facts.
Yet people still reply seriously to Nina in her uzif costume
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:07 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Yet people still reply seriously to Nina in her uzif costume
Hey, sometimes all you want to do is shoot into the barrel.
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Old 01-21-2018, 12:02 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Yet people still reply seriously to Nina in her uzif costume

#NotAllPeople
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Old 01-21-2018, 12:11 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Daniel, others, don't even try with this chump. No doubt it's all been explained to him before - his ilk is impervious to logic and facts.
Excellent and informative posts by Innula and Daniel; I certainly learned things about coal in this thread. The whole showing a libertarian that they are supporting socialism is just a bonus.
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Old 01-21-2018, 12:15 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I don't know how old you are, but I remember New York City when I was growing up, before pollution controls. It sucked pretty bad as far as air quality. Major cities in China are going through the same thing today.
I remember this from my childhood in the UK:



It was really spooky -- the bus home from school crawled along at walking pace, because you couldn't see more than a few yards ahead. And there was this strong smell of sulphur everywhere. The walk home from the bus stop felt like quite an adventure.

BBC ON THIS DAY | 6 | 1962: Choking fog spreads across Britain

It was probably the last big "smog" after the introduction of the Clean Air Act in 1956, introduced after the "great London smog" of 1952.
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