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Old 01-12-2018, 09:00 PM   #26 (permalink)
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What if the person wanted children.. then it would not be that superficial.
I agree that's not superficial.

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On the surgeon thing.. I have known men who have gone off women when they found out that their boobs were fake.. or that they had had cosmetic surgery of some kind.
That does seem a bit superficial to me in the case of the trans person. What if it was cosmetic surgery to hide severe burns?

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Also
If the trans person is upfront when attraction strikes.. then the problem sorts itself sooner rather than later. The finding out later about a lot of things is, for me a problem.
I agree they should mention it up front. No question there. ...but what if you just get to know them as a friend, and you develop an attraction organically for some time before finding out? And let's say for the sake of discussion that you don't want kids, so that's a non issue?

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Like .. lets say this amazing person you have been dating for a while.. and you find out they killed someone and are on the run..
or that they have HIV... or that they are your long lost biological sibling.. and they knew but you didn't.. or they have terminal cancer and have only a year or so to live...
I see your point, but I don't think those are really comparable to them being trans.

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Honesty is a good thing even if it means that you don't get to have the object of your affection..
This doesn't contradict my point at all.

For example, If I found out someone hated jewish people so much that they'd want to break up with me for being 2% jewish, I'd still tell them. I'd give them that honesty, but I'm not going to agree that, that doesn't say a lot about them as a person.

I will agree there are non bigoted reasons to not want to date a trans person, but will you admit that there are bigoted reasons to reject someone? That's ALL I'm saying. You have the right to be a bigot in your romantic life, but the word "bigot" can still apply.

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Old 01-12-2018, 09:03 PM   #27 (permalink)
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It seems to me to be discriminatory in the same way that a heterosexual woman is discriminating against women. I.e, an absurd abuse of language.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:46 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:26 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Idunno, the whole "announcing that you're trans" rubs me the wrong way.

If I have to do that, you have to announce your drinking problem, arrest record, etc to me before I interact with you.

sure as fuck don't see anyone going along with that one.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:51 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I agree they should mention it up front. No question there. ...but what if you just get to know them as a friend, and you develop an attraction organically for some time before finding out? And let's say for the sake of discussion that you don't want kids, so that's a non issue?
Some people are upfront, others not. I do think anyone should be open about anything before you get to the point of intimacy, but they are big kids and can decide for themselves.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:56 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Is it discriminatory to refuse to date a trans woman?

Well yes of course it is. There's no denying that when people think about whether or not they want to date other people they think about what other other people will think. So I'm afraid most men will say that they don't want to date transgender women without really considering all the other things there are to consider.
Hard to know what excites you until you come face to face with it. There are those that have and know certain things don't arouse them... and there are those that are simply reluctant to try. You could fall in love with someone and then find out, ew, no, that really does not 'work' for you on an intimate level, despite how open minded you might think you are.

There are certainly people out there that discriminate in favor of trans men and women, but like transgender folks themselves, they're not in the majority which makes finding each other somewhat difficult.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:42 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:43 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Lesbian perspective here...

I have a trans woman friend who gets all up in arms about people who won’t date her because she’s trans and non-binary. But the problem is sexuality is far more complex than that. She identifies as a lesbian, but has a number of qualities some lesbians just aren’t into. She doesn’t take hormones and hasn’t had any surgeries. She has a bit of facial hair most of the time (granted, so do many women assigned so at birth.) And obviously, since she hasn’t had surgeries, she has a penis. People who don’t know her tend to assume she is a very effeminate gay man or trans woman who likes men. She is awesome and since she is also into the poly and kink scene, has no shortage of admirers who like her just the way she is. But not every lesbian is going to feel the same way.

I like her as a friend, and I consider myself demisexual since I am most attracted to who someone is rather than their gender or body. However, truth is I really don’t like penises. I could possibly fall madly in love with someone with a penis, but the penis would be a downside. I would have no hesitation about dating a trans woman who had surgery, and having looked at photos of trans women who haven’t had bottom surgery online, I must say I find female penises less repellent. But they still kind of bother me. I don’t know why. And I don’t think that makes me bigoted. I’m more than happy to be friends and fight for the rights of trans people to be fully accepted no matter what parts they have. I don't care if the trans woman in the bathroom stall next to me has a penis. I just don't want it in me.

I’m not attracted to trans men. They are too masculine for me. I do like butch lesbians, especially of the dapper, well-dressed, charming variety. And femmes the most, especially the outgoing, take-no-shit Wonder Woman types. I find women of certain ethnic backgrounds very attractive, but I have about 4 "types" and they range across all races. Most of all I love musicians... if she can sing, I don't care WHAT she looks like. Who knows why we are the way we are? But I don’t think it’s essential that we change who we want to have sex with or marry to achieve social equality.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:57 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I like bald men. Don't ask me why. I also like peanut butter chocolate ice cream and will discriminate for it over every other flavor at Baskin and Robbins. If a bald man approached me with a bowl of peanut butter chocolate ice cream I will know I have died and gone to sex heaven.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:38 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:11 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Lesbian perspective here...

I have a trans woman friend who gets all up in arms about people who won’t date her because she’s trans and non-binary. But the problem is sexuality is far more complex than that. She identifies as a lesbian, but has a number of qualities some lesbians just aren’t into. She doesn’t take hormones and hasn’t had any surgeries. She has a bit of facial hair most of the time (granted, so do many women assigned so at birth.) And obviously, since she hasn’t had surgeries, she has a penis. People who don’t know her tend to assume she is a very effeminate gay man or trans woman who likes men. She is awesome and since she is also into the poly and kink scene, has no shortage of admirers who like her just the way she is. But not every lesbian is going to feel the same way.

I like her as a friend, and I consider myself demisexual since I am most attracted to who someone is rather than their gender or body. However, truth is I really don’t like penises. I could possibly fall madly in love with someone with a penis, but the penis would be a downside. I would have no hesitation about dating a trans woman who had surgery, and having looked at photos of trans women who haven’t had bottom surgery online, I must say I find female penises less repellent. But they still kind of bother me. I don’t know why. And I don’t think that makes me bigoted. I’m more than happy to be friends and fight for the rights of trans people to be fully accepted no matter what parts they have. I don't care if the trans woman in the bathroom stall next to me has a penis. I just don't want it in me.

I’m not attracted to trans men. They are too masculine for me. I do like butch lesbians, especially of the dapper, well-dressed, charming variety. And femmes the most, especially the outgoing, take-no-shit Wonder Woman types. I find women of certain ethnic backgrounds very attractive, but I have about 4 "types" and they range across all races. Most of all I love musicians... if she can sing, I don't care WHAT she looks like. Who knows why we are the way we are? But I don’t think it’s essential that we change who we want to have sex with or marry to achieve social equality.
I can't imagine ever saying that a person is a bigot for rejecting me since I can't know their true reasons (not that I'm trans, just arguing from that perspective). That's why I keep posing the hypothetical scenario where the trans woman in question is exactly someone's type in every way except that you just have the knowledge of them being trans. They have hormones, perfect surgeries (beyond current technology) and everything.

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Old 01-13-2018, 09:18 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Of course, you can look at it as if you make a choice between two people to go out with (whether or not either or both are trans or what gender they are) are you discriminating against the other person? Yes, but as I said before just because you are discriminating (a synonym of 'making a choice') that does not say whether it is a good thing or a bad thing. Otherwise everyone on the planet would be married to everyone else on the planet. Ok, some people would like that but can you just imagine the logistics of having 7.5 billion spouses!
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:23 AM   #38 (permalink)
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If I have to do that, you have to announce your drinking problem, arrest record, etc to me before I interact with you.

sure as fuck don't see anyone going along with that one.
Seriously, you think people get a free pass on those issues?

I may not need of any that information on a first date, anymore than I would expect anyone to announce they're trans on a first date. But if a single casual dates turns into something that would lead to more dates and a relationships, even if "just" sexual, then hell yes, I would want to know about alcoholism and arrest records.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:28 AM   #39 (permalink)
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That's why I keep posing the hypothetical scenario where the trans woman in question is exactly someone's type in every way except that you just have the knowledge of them being trans. They have hormones, perfect surgeries (beyond current technology) and everything.
No one owes an explanation for why they don't date someone. And more to the point, no one needs any justification for why they made that decision. There doesn't have to be a "good" reason for choosing not to date someone. The fact that they don't want to date is enough. Whether or not you think the basis for that decision is rational or ethical or kind is really none of your business. Not your life, not your body, not your emotions.

In order for personal relationships to be consensual, both people have to consent in good faith, not because someone else says they "should" say yes.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:50 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Say there were identical twins out there and you had to decide to date one or the other. They have pretty comparable personalities, salaries, whatever. From a dating perspective it does not make a lot of sense to prefer one or the other. Yet most people will. Why? Choosing who to be attracted to is not always logical.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:59 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:06 PM   #42 (permalink)
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We might not even have a rational explanation in our own minds why we're just not into someone. The stars might be aligned, all things might be perfect, the person might be everything you thought you ever wanted in a partner, but the spark just isn't there. I mean who the fuck knows half the time why there is or is not any chemistry with someone?
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:17 PM   #43 (permalink)
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We might not even have a rational explanation in our own minds why we're just not into someone. The stars might be aligned, all things might be perfect, the person might be everything you thought you ever wanted in a partner, but the spark just isn't there. I mean who the fuck knows half the time why there is or is not any chemistry with someone?
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:32 PM   #44 (permalink)
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And no I never made any kojack jokes to him ...I was too caught up trying to act cool and sophisticated or whatever.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:48 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Me too Han. I should have said that.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:51 PM   #46 (permalink)
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So if your only reason for not dating someone is that they're trans maybe you just shouldn't say that out loud. Just like you probably wouldn't tell someone it was because she's flat chested. (My situation as a young woman.)
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:37 PM   #47 (permalink)
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So if your only reason for not dating someone is that they're trans maybe you just shouldn't say that out loud. Just like you probably wouldn't tell someone it was because she's flat chested.


Or fat or plain or stupid or because they have freckles.

That's called being a kind, considerate person. You don't owe anyone an explanation, but above and beyond that, you shouldn't provide an explanation that will hurt them even more than "Thank you for asking, but no."
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:07 PM   #48 (permalink)
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No one owes an explanation for why they don't date someone. And more to the point, no one needs any justification for why they made that decision. There doesn't have to be a "good" reason for choosing not to date someone. The fact that they don't want to date is enough. Whether or not you think the basis for that decision is rational or ethical or kind is really none of your business. Not your life, not your body, not your emotions.

In order for personal relationships to be consensual, both people have to consent in good faith, not because someone else says they "should" say yes.
I totally agree!

The point I'm making is a bit more subtle and I think I'm not describing it clearly enough. Let me phrase it this way. We have two separate points in this thread:

1) You have the right to reject someone for any reason and no reason.

2) Your reasons can't make you a bigot or prove there is something ugly inside of you that you aren't facing.

People here are passionately arguing for number 1, and I never contested it. I enthusiastically agree with it!

But I think people are evading the real discussion on number 2, and just hoping that 1 implies it. I'm saying that these are separate propositions. No matter how many people present arguments for number 1, it doesn't immediately prove 2.

If you suddenly dumped a SO, I won't question you! Of course not, it's none of my business. But if YOU know in your own conscience, and not from accusers, that it was because you learned of their father's ethnic group, then that is a prejudice. You have the right to have it. For the 80th time, I'm not saying you must or even should continue to date them. I'm just saying it's prejudice that might bleed into other, non romantic decisions you make without your awareness.

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Old 01-13-2018, 05:47 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Ayesha's post brought up some interesting discussions with some friends of mine today. One of whom is pre-op but has actually begun hormone therapy. Following the thread, I assumed (which is never good) that we were speculating about a person who has completed surgery.

Almost everyone agreed that choosing to date or not date someone who is pre-op is a pretty significant factor to take into account when thinking about attraction and entering a relationship. However, most of also ended up thinking that, if someone is post-op and has been living as a specific gender for years, then to use that as a reason to not feel attraction or not entering a relation does kind of denote a negative form of generalization and discrimination in ones thinking. The main argument being is that you would have probably already have felt attraction and entered into some sort of close relationship before even learning this information.

Bah, I am not sure that made any sense, but it was quite the conversation.
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Old 01-13-2018, 06:03 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Or fat or plain or stupid or because they have freckles.

That's called being a kind, considerate person. You don't owe anyone an explanation, but above and beyond that, you shouldn't provide an explanation that will hurt them even more than "Thank you for asking, but no."
Exactly.
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