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Old 01-09-2018, 10:39 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Comparing any candidate to Trump is an unfairly low bar.

The worst mistake the Dems can make is to think that flash and pizazz are the next winning formula. Not in a country where the current administration has been busily tearing down every single thing Obama tried to build, including environmental protections, the unions, our foreign alliances and trade deals, voter rights and gender equality. That flash and pizazz gave us the most singularly ineffective and unqualified President in history. And *HE* still lot the popular vote!

The next-worst mistake is to think that our only real choices must come from this early-2018 list. There's still 2+ years before it is a real issue. If we want things to be more normalized, we need to let normal processes play out. Including the mid-terms and Trump's inevitable daily self-immolation.

By 2020, I have to believe this country will be ready for someone who is actually qualified for the office. That doesn't mean national office, necessarily, but someone who is unlike Trump in their ability to read and to listen.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:42 AM   #52 (permalink)
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All great men of God were flawed
Moses killed a man, Noah got drunk and Trump tweets
God loves using imperfect people
You all know that I'm pretty theologically conservative, but I find comparing Dump to Moses or Noah pretty offensive. It's a damn shame that level of stupid isn't painful.
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:00 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Oprah, Don't Do It - The New York Times
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:03 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Also,

The Fever Dream of President Oprah - The New Yorker
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Oprah Winfrey, the politician, has long been an American fever dream. “Oprah, I love Oprah. Oprah would always be my first choice,” Donald Trump told Larry King in 1999. King had asked Trump about a running mate, should he ever decide to abandon his ambrosial New York life style for Washington. (Trump echoed the idea in an interview with George Stephanopoulos in 2015, as the fantasy of his own campaign was congealing into something grossly real.)

...
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:12 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I'm not sure it is necessarily ridiculous. It speaks to the mood and abject desperation of so many as we watch in horror every day as Trump and his enablers destroy our country and seem to be unstoppable. Her dignified grace, the raw power of that speech, and that's she's motherfucking Oprah Winfrey all provide the perfect storm right now to get people who are feeling hopeless and broken to feel excited. I don't think Oprah will ultimately run, but entertaining the idea for just a little while isn't a bad thing.

I agree that I'd love to see her take a larger role in politics, but not as POTUS - at least not now.
I agree with this totally. I should probably have said "misdirected" instead of ridiculous. Bad choice of words on my part. There are a lot of viable things that people who are feeling that abject desperation can be doing, right now, to make an effective change in the situation. Trying to draft Oprah over a well given acceptance speech and push her into a political arena is, I think, not the best use of that energy. At the same time, would it not be wonderful to have her going around and delivering that speech, or one like it, to endorse some unknown candidate trying to unseat a GOP house member. I can't think of a single GOP house candidate that would not shake in their boots once they heard that Oprah was coming to endorse their opponent.

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That's the sort of attitude that gave the USA Donald instead of Hillary - don't disregard the value of "the lesser of two evils".
I don't buy the lesser of two evils argument, at least not when picking between two political candidates in a general election. It assumes that you have two bad choices, which is never really the case at all. You will have two candidates, neither which agree with everything you feel is important. That in itself does not make them "evil" and one will inevitably agree with you more than the other. If you are smart, that is who you throw your weight behind... and then you cross your fingers.

However, if the comment was suggesting a Oprah vs Trump decision. I would easily vote for Winfrey. I would vote for a three-legged chair over Trump, so that is no ringing endorsement of her political skills. However, I don't think she could do a good job as President, and i doubt she could get through a primary and I would not support her in a field of more viable and politically experienced candidates.
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:19 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Didn't Oprah endorse Hillary?
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:54 PM   #57 (permalink)
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The lesser of two evils is still evil. Dump is president because people are still too locked into this two party mindset and believe that they're wasting their vote if they vote third party.
Sorry to break this to you, but under the US federal system as it is currently structured, voting third party is wasting your vote. Everything about voting at the federal level in your country is geared towards only two viable parties. Until you can somehow effect widespread systemic change, voting third party in a presidential election is self-congratulatory nonsense.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:13 PM   #58 (permalink)
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It is painfully obvious that some of you guys are living in a liberal bubble and don't have any friends on social media who are Trump supporters. Those people actually think that Dump Truck is doing a great job. They think the "My button is bigger..." tweet was great. They claim some of the idiotic things Trump tweets is just him "playing liberals like a fiddle," and actually believe he is trying to keep his campaign promises.
I totally agree with this. The CNN interview with Trump resident ball washer Steven Miller is a great example. While the Huffpost and the left declared it a brilliant move by Tapper to shut Miller down, most of the general press and certainly the conservative press did not agree. Miller is a hero among Trump voters now and the mythical "conspiracy" by CNN was all but confirmed. Even during the Golden Globes, I had moderate friends posting that they could not get through it because it was a "political rally with some awards snuck in. We get it, now just give us the awards!"
As it stands right now, the people in the heartland who voted for him are even more likely to vote for him again and, bizarrely enough, think he is doing the things he said he would do.

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Old 01-09-2018, 06:25 PM   #59 (permalink)
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You all know that I'm pretty theologically conservative, but I find comparing Dump to Moses or Noah pretty offensive. It's a damn shame that level of stupid isn't painful.
Yet you want us to be friends with people who post stuff like that?

Note that I draw a quite clear line between conservatives and parishioners in the church of trump.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:39 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Sorry to break this to you, but under the US federal system as it is currently structured, voting third party is wasting your vote. Everything about voting at the federal level in your country is geared towards only two viable parties. Until you can somehow effect widespread systemic change, voting third party in a presidential election is self-congratulatory nonsense.
That old trope. How do you think the Ds and the Rs became major parties anyhow? Were they magicked into existence? There is nada in the constitution about them.

All that aside though. Voting third party is voting STRATEGICALLY. Yes, if you are in a purple area (which are few and far between) your vote matters (and most likely you should vote for the major party closest to your views) but most people are in solid blue and solid red states/districts. In which case voting for a third party does 2 very concrete things:

1) While the president is determined by electoral votes federal matching funds is partly determined from percentage of the popular vote. If you know how the vote will go in your state no matter what you do why would you not want your vote to make a difference in something? Plus, you can look at it as 'trading votes' to allow independents in purple states to vote for a major party instead without damaging their party's chances of getting FEC funds.

2) Believe it or not, politicians DO notice how many votes went to invalidated ballots, write-ins, and, yes, third parties. They know these are people that took the effort to come out and specifically did not record a correct vote. This means they pay attention to those numbers if they get elected.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:46 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Yet you want us to be friends with people who post stuff like that?

Note that I draw a quite clear line between conservatives and parishioners in the church of trump.
The woman who wrote that - apart from being a little nutty about Trump - is actually a very nice person who would do anything for just about anybody. These days I appreciate how she maintains a relationship with her step-daughters even though her husband died a good 10 years ago. When one of them was going through a hard time, she let the step-daughter and her kids move in with her for awhile.

Your car break down in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night? She'll come get you. That is why I maintain a friendship with her. I don't get the Trump thing, but she probably feels the same way about me not liking Trump.
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:53 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Sorry to break this to you, but under the US federal system as it is currently structured, voting third party is wasting your vote. Everything about voting at the federal level in your country is geared towards only two viable parties. Until you can somehow effect widespread systemic change, voting third party in a presidential election is self-congratulatory nonsense.
Kara already explained it better, but... I agreed and disagreed because its complicated.

Basically, if you vote won't make a difference [because, with the current system, after a point it doesn't matter], then you can still make a difference by voting for a different party so that maybe we can get a different second party, if that makes any sense.

Though, this could backfire - afterall, if everyone in DC, for example, decided that since everyone is going to vote for Dems, all voted for Green, then the GOP could conceivably win. However, the likelihood of this happening is slim, since some people vote entirely based on party.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:19 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Personally, I'd prefer Elizabeth Warren, too. If she's running against Mike Pence after we impeach Trump, and his own party fails to renominate the "stable genius", we might have a chance to reclaim both our party and the country from our corporate overlords.

You'll pardon me if I don't get my hopes up for that.

But, the very notion of Oprah running may have set off a least a small tilt towards decimating that ugly old GOP fossil demographic.

As Pandora found after she loosed all the troubles and maladies on the world, there's always Hope left. A girl can dream. Oprah told me so.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:29 PM   #64 (permalink)
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You all know that I'm pretty theologically conservative, but I find comparing Dump to Moses or Noah pretty offensive. It's a damn shame that level of stupid isn't painful.
Yeah, a drinking or rage problem doesn't prove stupidity in the way Trump's own words do.

Literally the only evidence he is smart, is that he is wealthy. ...never mind that he was born with it.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:42 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I agree with this totally. I should probably have said "misdirected" instead of ridiculous. Bad choice of words on my part. There are a lot of viable things that people who are feeling that abject desperation can be doing, right now, to make an effective change in the situation. Trying to draft Oprah over a well given acceptance speech and push her into a political arena is, I think, not the best use of that energy. At the same time, would it not be wonderful to have her going around and delivering that speech, or one like it, to endorse some unknown candidate trying to unseat a GOP house member. I can't think of a single GOP house candidate that would not shake in their boots once they heard that Oprah was coming to endorse their opponent.



I don't buy the lesser of two evils argument, at least not when picking between two political candidates in a general election. It assumes that you have two bad choices, which is never really the case at all. You will have two candidates, neither which agree with everything you feel is important. That in itself does not make them "evil" and one will inevitably agree with you more than the other. If you are smart, that is who you throw your weight behind... and then you cross your fingers.
Eh, it very often can be "two evils".

For the sake of quantifying, lets say there are 50 "issues". I agree with candidate A on 15 issues and candidate B on 4 issues. Both candidates, per my world wants and views, are "pretty evil", B is just way more evil than A, so I get to settle.

Often, because of the way our system works, there might be a Candidate C, whom I agree with on 36 issues. But Candidate B probably isn't going to get even 1% of the votes because they aren't one of the "Big 2", and I really don't want Candidate B, because that candidate seems "really evil", so I still settle for Candidate A, because helping the less evil main candidate (A) is less risky than supporting C, because supporting C may help push B to victory.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:52 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Elizabeth Warren might be the best choice of someone likely to be in the running. For whatever reasons she didn't run in 2016. She might not be interested in 2020 either.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:07 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Elizabeth Warren might be the best choice of someone likely to be in the running. For whatever reasons she didn't run in 2016. She might not be interested in 2020 either.
I'd not mind seeing her in charge, but I don't think she's electable. She is popular among the very liberal (like everyone here) but no one else.

Republicans, with their belief in fire and brimstone, are extremely good at demonizing anyone who's been around too long. The ideal candidate needs to be someone who has good experience, but is mostly unheard of. Someone like a governor who isn't well known outside of their state.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:08 PM   #68 (permalink)
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That old trope. How do you think the Ds and the Rs became major parties anyhow? Were they magicked into existence? There is nada in the constitution about them.
Because in the decades since their ascendency, they have colluded to change things to their own advantage. It's not just about the first past the post nature of the actual vote, things like ballot access laws, barriers to government subsidies, debate rules and the like.

The fact that different parties once held sway is an interesting historical footnote, but is irrelevant to the current status quo, which has been engineered by the two major parties to their explict advantage.

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Believe it or not, politicians DO notice how many votes went to invalidated ballots, write-ins, and, yes, third parties. They know these are people that took the effort to come out and specifically did not record a correct vote. This means they pay attention to those numbers if they get elected.
If this were having any real effect, your current political landscape would be trending towards less partisan, not more so. An effective multi-party system leads to more consensus, not less, as the major parties move towards the middle ground and leave the fringes for the minors. This is not happening in the US.

I'm not saying third party voting is entirely pointless, I am however, of the opinion that you should be more circumspect about picking your battles and the presidential election is one race, that without serious systemic change, third party voting is not just pointless, but has the potential to be actively deleterious.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:28 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I'd not mind seeing her in charge, but I don't think she's electable. She is popular among the very liberal (like everyone here) but no one else.
I don't know where you put yourself on the liberal / conservative spectrum. I'd say many posters here think Hillary was absolutely wonderful which I wouldn't characterize as very liberal but maybe that's just me.


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Republicans, with their belief in fire and brimstone, are extremely good at demonizing anyone who's been around too long. The ideal candidate needs to be someone who has good experience, but is mostly unheard of. Someone like a governor who isn't well known outside of their state.
Maybe Tulsi Gabbard from Hawaii? I need to read more about her.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:31 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Oprah as a Presidential Candidate is an invented media frenzy that we should have learned by now to ignore. Fuck No! Experienced candidates only!

I have a dark horse candidate I would love to see run who would be the ideal: Experienced (sorry Oprah), not old (sorry Bernie and Biden), no baggage like voting for Iraq War (sorry Biden), and well liked by his current constituents.

Governor Jay Inslee of Washington

I'm sorry to say that he is a white male, but considering the racism and sexism of the average American it should not be held against him.
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Old 01-10-2018, 12:51 AM   #71 (permalink)
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So I kind of panicked when people started saying Oprah for president. This is what one of my friends had to say:
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Here's the thing. Oprah's speech was for me. She was talking to women of color everywhere. Not in an exclusionary way, but for once we were the ones being truly, accurately represented. We're allowed the joy and adulation of the fantasy that someone like that could actually represent us in our highest political office. If you don't get that this moment is about us, and that we're not asking for your approval or nuanced critique of a literal presidential campaign right now, and that we're not aware of those nuances, then that speech wasn't for you, and you need to check your privilege. And I say this with all the love and respect possible for my friends and colleagues, SIT DOWN BE HUMBLE
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Old 01-10-2018, 05:30 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Aribeth Zelin View Post
Kara already explained it better, but... I agreed and disagreed because its complicated.

Basically, if you vote won't make a difference [because, with the current system, after a point it doesn't matter], then you can still make a difference by voting for a different party so that maybe we can get a different second party, if that makes any sense.

Though, this could backfire - afterall, if everyone in DC, for example, decided that since everyone is going to vote for Dems, all voted for Green, then the GOP could conceivably win. However, the likelihood of this happening is slim, since some people vote entirely based on party.
Exactly, although if a large percentage around you were planning to vote third party it would make the news. Typically all the non non-major-party votes in a state/district together only total to a few percent. Even setting aside all other reasons to vote for one of the two major candidates most people are too used to "I have always voted for party X". It is rare to see someone voting for different parties, no matter who they are running that year.
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Old 01-10-2018, 06:06 AM   #73 (permalink)
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You can't have an effective 3rd party in America

I can't believe I have to post this AGAIN, but this third-party nonsense just does not die.

This has nothing to do with policy or "the will of the people" or voting your conscience. It's sheer game mechanics for first-past-the-post systems. Because the winner gets all, there are very specific patterns that develop out of a field of parties. Inevitably, because of the way our constitution structured voting, two parties will emerge as power brokers. Two.

The identity of those two parties may change during contentious times, but each time after the dust settles down, two parties are the result.

Countries that have viable 3rd and 4th parties have a parliamentary system. We do not.

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Old 01-10-2018, 06:18 AM   #74 (permalink)
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I can't believe I have to post this AGAIN, but this third-party nonsense just does not die.

This has nothing to do with policy or "the will of the people" or voting your conscience. It's sheer game mechanics for first-past-the-post systems. Because the winner gets all, there are very specific patterns that develop out of a field of parties. Inevitably, because of the way our constitution structured voting, two parties will emerge as power brokers. Two.

The identity of those two parties may change during contentious times, but each time after the dust settles down, two parties are the result.

Countries that have viable 3rd and 4th parties have a parliamentary system. We do not.

The Problems with First Past the Post Voting Explained - YouTube
This little video is brilliant, Beebo. I've tried to explain "our system vs other democracies" in the past. This could really help.
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:45 AM   #75 (permalink)
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I like Oprah and I think that there is a role in politics for her, just not as POTUS.
Yes. And along with reunion with Britain: Oprah for Governor General!

That way Oprah could be mostly hands-off, giving inspiring speeches and handling those sticky extra-democratic crises: There's nothing wrong with the US that couldn't be solved by dissolving Congress and kicking POTUS to the curb for an election do-over.
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