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Old 12-29-2017, 12:40 PM   #76 (permalink)
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You know, your Bernie antagonisms might be pointed if I'd actually voted or stumped for Bernie. Clinton, while I'm no fan, clearly had the best shot.
It’s not an antagonism. It’s what’s actually happening. I actually did vote for Bernie in the primary. And I’ll regret it for the rest of my life. My point is that he tried the strategy you’re suggesting — focused on white voters, an economics only message, and ignored POC concerns. It failed miserably. It continues to fail.

Women and POC (and, especially WOC) have been building coalitions and influence within the Dem party for decades. Now that they’ve reached positions of power they are not going to be told to table their concerns and center whiteness. It is a non-starter. Further, you are not going to put the genies of movements like metoo and BLM back into their respective bottles. Not with POC being murdered by police regularly and abusers being outed in every corner. It is foolishness to suggest any liberal movement can detach itself from race and gender issues.

And lastly, no one excluded white Americans from the Dem message. The ones that did excluded themselves. They decided there was an (Only) in front of Black Lives Matter. They decided to pretend their status was under attack when it wasn’t. They decided to swallow the falsehoods that minorities and undocumented immigrants were sucking down their taxes. The Dems did not tell whites of any economic level they were excluded.

You can only reach people that want to be reached. Our energies are better spent defending and protecting our base and reaching out to disenfranchised voters. And those of us doing that are not elites by any measure.
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Old 12-29-2017, 03:38 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Old 12-29-2017, 03:46 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SalStrange View Post
It’s not an antagonism. It’s what’s actually happening. I actually did vote for Bernie in the primary. And I’ll regret it for the rest of my life. My point is that he tried the strategy you’re suggesting — focused on white voters, an economics only message, and ignored POC concerns. It failed miserably. It continues to fail.

Women and POC (and, especially WOC) have been building coalitions and influence within the Dem party for decades. Now that they’ve reached positions of power they are not going to be told to table their concerns and center whiteness. It is a non-starter. Further, you are not going to put the genies of movements like metoo and BLM back into their respective bottles. Not with POC being murdered by police regularly and abusers being outed in every corner. It is foolishness to suggest any liberal movement can detach itself from race and gender issues.

And lastly, no one excluded white Americans from the Dem message. The ones that did excluded themselves. They decided there was an (Only) in front of Black Lives Matter. They decided to pretend their status was under attack when it wasn’t. They decided to swallow the falsehoods that minorities and undocumented immigrants were sucking down their taxes. The Dems did not tell whites of any economic level they were excluded.

You can only reach people that want to be reached. Our energies are better spent defending and protecting our base and reaching out to disenfranchised voters. And those of us doing that are not elites by any measure.
Exactly. Even if, and it's a huge if, one accepts the claim that these people voted the way they did for economic reasons, and giving them the very best benefit of the doubt, it still leaves the fact that:

A) They were willing to completely throw minorities and immigrants under the bus, meaning, that they are still only concerned about themselves not any greater economic good that benefits everyone. They aren't true partners, and never will be if they only want better for themselves alone. They, at best, are completely untrustworthy as to any social betterment issues.

B) There is something within them that believes that they deserve more and better than minorities and immigrants.

C) Assuming you can, once in awhile, get them to vote alongside you, your goals are entirely different and at odds.

Why would we give up our belief in equality to court them when we have the potential to reap so much more reward in focusing more on getting our own people out to vote? They are our people, not some group that may or may not be persuaded if you drop all of your morals to win them over, not to mention betraying the very people you actually want to support?
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Old 12-29-2017, 04:27 PM   #79 (permalink)
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You have to define your terms. The R efforts to do an outright repeal failed. Their repeal of the mandatory coverage provision (a key component) via the tax bill did not.
For all intents and purposes, aren't they the same? They may not have been able to repeal ACA outright, but by eviscerating the program's major source of funding and sustainment, they've all but assured the ACA completely collapses in on itself in a pretty short amount of time.
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Old 12-29-2017, 06:25 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Katheryne Helendale View Post
For all intents and purposes, aren't they the same? They may not have been able to repeal ACA outright, but by eviscerating the program's major source of funding and sustainment, they've all but assured the ACA completely collapses in on itself in a pretty short amount of time.
Yes, that is what they mean. If you ask "did the Rs repeal the ACA" .... well, in name, no. However by removing a key provision (and dear leader not enforcing the parts that are there) they are causing it to fail.

edit: It is sort of like the trivial pursuit question that asked what planet the ship in 2001 was going to. The book and the movie had two different final destinations, even if the major action took place around Jupiter in both.
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