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Old 12-29-2017, 11:22 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Not to interrupt the bullshit fairy tale you’ve built yourself, but no one on the left dismissed them. They have dismissed themselves by choosing to side with white supremacy. That choice isn’t something you can talk people out of.

If you’re suggesting that the left needs to activate the same racism, then that is both immoral and stupid strategy. The left is never going to out racist the right (although parts of it tries) and any attempt to do so would sacrifice their most engaged and important base voters.

The right has all their eggs in one basket. The left doesn’t have that luxury.
I think you probably need to go back and read what I wrote. Your insistence on the issue being one of "activating racism" is your foible, not mine whereas every statement in here has been dismissive automatically qualifying someone as being dismissed by Liberals because they are assumptive of someone's perceived antagonism because they happened to vote for Trump. What is it, five states or four states that were flipped for Trump voted for Obama twice? That hardly seems like a place a conscientious Democrat would abandon in the next election.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:26 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wrong Weatherwax View Post
And an outright dismissal of a huge voting block as being "too racist." I'd say my point stands.
I'm perfectly happy to spend time when I'm canvassing explaining to people that their concerns about -- for example -- all the immigrants in the area being responsible for difficulties in getting an appointment with their local doctor, or being responsible for too large classes in their children's school are, in fact, concerns about the results of the government's continuing policies of austerity and are best fixed by giving schools and the health service adequate funding rather than by blaming immigrants from Poland.

I'm not, however, going to spend much time trying to persuade someone who tells me he supports UKIP or Britain First because he doesn't like foreigners, period, because I know from experience that I'm very unlikely to change his mind, and there's no point banging my head against a brick wall (his head, maybe, but not mine).
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:32 AM   #53 (permalink)
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I'm perfectly happy to spend time when I'm canvassing explaining to people that their concerns about -- for example -- all the immigrants in the area being responsible for difficulties in getting an appointment with their local doctor, or being responsible for too large classes in their children's school are, in fact, concerns about the results of the government's continuing policies of austerity and are best fixed by giving schools and the health service adequate funding rather than by blaming immigrants from Poland.

I'm not, however, going to spend much time trying to persuade someone who tells me he supports UKIP or Britain First because he doesn't like foreigners, period, because I know from experience that I'm very unlikely to change his mind, and there's no point banging my head against a brick wall (his head, maybe, but not mine).
And you shouldn't. I'm not sure where this confusion is coming from so maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly.

A Trump supporter does not automatically make someone racist, stupid, ignorant, redneck, or any of the thousand and one insults I've seen any number of liberals on this board or any other place use consistently to describe them and abandoning those supporters or more specifically, those supporters who have traditionally voted Democratic/Left because they did is a losing strategy. Yes, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff and know when to close the door in their face but what concerns me is outright dismissal. Making that assumption is equally as baffling as someone who assumes that another person is going to rob them based on the color of their skin.

And who knows, business as usual may win the next election and my prediction of a 2nd coming of Trump may change based on a strategy change.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:36 AM   #54 (permalink)
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I think you probably need to go back and read what I wrote. Your insistence on the issue being one of "activating racism" is your foible, not mine whereas every statement in here has been dismissive automatically qualifying someone as being dismissed by Liberals because they are assumptive of someone's perceived antagonism because they happened to vote for Trump. What is it, five states or four states that were flipped for Trump voted for Obama twice? That hardly seems like a place a conscientious Democrat would abandon in the next election.
My insistence on the issue being about racism is not a foible, but a fact. All credible post-election examination has shown bullshit talking points like “economic anxiety” to have no basis in fact. The only Trump voter identifying factors that holds up are racism and evangelicalism. The left isn’t going to talk people out of those things. It’s stupid to pretend otherwise. There are more complicated facts like how this was the first election since 1965 where the VRA was not in play and how that allowed the GOP to turn their suppression efforts up to 11. But that doesn’t seem to get as much traction as telling liberals they’re too elite.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:36 AM   #55 (permalink)
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When you vote for someone whose entire platform was based on denigrating the brown hordes as rapists, murderers and terrorists, you are what you are.

It is indeed dismissal and it's appropriate.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:45 AM   #56 (permalink)
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It is indeed dismissal and it's appropriate.
It’s not just appropriate, it’s the only strategic option. The idea that the left could chase after Trump voters without alienating our POC base is advanced levels of delusional.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:48 AM   #57 (permalink)
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It's also not something I'm willing to do.

Mollifying the feelings of voters who expressly dislike my community isn't something that even occurs to me. I'm more concerned about the fact that my friends, POC and white immigrants alike, feel increasingly unsafe.

That is a fact.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:52 AM   #58 (permalink)
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My insistence on the issue being about racism is not a foible, but a fact. All credible post-election examination has shown bullshit talking points like “economic anxiety” to have no basis in fact. The only Trump voter identifying factors that holds up are racism and evangelicalism. The left isn’t going to talk people out of those things. It’s stupid to pretend otherwise. There are more complicated facts like how this was the first election since 1965 where the VRA was not in play and how that allowed the GOP to turn their suppression efforts up to 11. But that doesn’t seem to get as much traction as telling liberals they’re too elite.
I'd say that's a pretty bold statement, can you back up the "all credible post-election examination?" I've certainly seen samples that agree with that statement but they are hardly comprehensive and often seem fairly casual.

And I will agree with the issue of the VRA, never said otherwise.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:55 AM   #59 (permalink)
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I'm going to address the "voting against your own interests" topic. Yes, large numbers of people are doing it, have been doing it for some time now, and imo are unlikely to change course. These are the people who voted Reagan, voted Bush Jr and voted Trump, even if they held their nose with the latter. Abso-fucking-lutely, they are voting against their own interest, in particular if they are in the working class. Almost every single thing that was and is being done under these leaders (I'm loath to even call Trump that) has been hugely detrimental and has been incremental beginning with Reagan in destroying their own economic interest as well as the rest of us who have had to live with their terrible fucking decisions.

It's my opinion that they have allowed themselves to be completely duped, at best, by liars who have preyed upon their desire to believe in the American dream, and at worst who have preyed upon their desire to feel superior to others or control others' lives.

These are the people who still believe Reagan's Morning in America bullshit, who fell for Bush' s everyman cleaning brush routine and believe somehow, in utter lunacy, that Trump will do a single thing for them. The reality is that each of these presidencies has absolutely gone out of their way to weaken and break the power of the common working man and woman. They were okay with it as long as it only hurt people of color, women and anyone lower on the totem pole than themselves. They felt they were safe. They thought whiteness/maleness/income/education protected them from what their voting choices have wrought upon the rest of us.

Well, welcome to reality. Greedy men, in particular, the ruling class weren't content with just taking, taking, and taking from the lowly, underserved, looked down upon poor and maligned. They didn't and don't distinguish between sending your grandfather's union factory job overseas to take advantage of even more poor and maligned people and sending your IT job for which you trained highly for and owe a ton of debt to attain overseas.

So, now it's their turn at the grinding wheel and NOW what is happening and has been happening for decades due to THEIR choices is suddenly a major issue and we (the people they left behind long ago) should rally behind them to not only, yet again, rank them higher on the totem pole of life, but rally behind them as they made yet another terrible deicision, the worst they have ever made as they threw the largest hissy fit to elect the most incompetent and dangerous man president, EVER and who right now, here and now, is absolutely destroying everything good about this country AND worsening the economic divide of which they rail about now that it has hit them.

We should reach out to them? Why? Note that I'm trying my best to not ascribe overt racism to some of their decisions but from my window it most definitely has that feel.

Nay, I would rather, as I always have, throw my lot in with people who are the poor and maligned and those who stand with them. These are the people deserving of my sympathy, camaraderie and effort.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:00 PM   #60 (permalink)
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It would be easier not to dismiss conservatives if they weren't also pushing things like "Climate Change is fake" and "The Earth is Flat" and "Abstinence Only" nonsense.

This sort of thing is why you get lumped as "Too dumb to matter" or whatever.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:02 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Separate google searches say they were both invented in 1976?
vi almost certainly existed on some systems earlier but it showed up on the general population "Computing Center" in Evans Hall some time in 1978. I know I was introduced to Emacs (on the Decsystem 10/20, 36 bit) before vi (on PDP-11, 16 bit).
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:06 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I'd say that's a pretty bold statement, can you back up the "all credible post-election examination?" I've certainly seen samples that agree with that statement but they are hardly comprehensive and often seem fairly casual.
FFS.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.b0b9b112d7aa

https://www.thenation.com/article/ec...mp-racism-did/

https://www.theroot.com/how-russia-u...ers-1797582833

Trump and racism: A view from a pollster | TheHill

Trump’s bigoted base, by the numbers.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:08 PM   #63 (permalink)
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And I disagree that facts speak for themselves based purely on the successful use of propaganda pushed in no small part by the right. The facts need someone to speak for them, eloquently, with character, and with emotion.
Propaganda relies on emotion (whether in the propaganda or the person hearing it) and/or lies. You only need to add emotion to your argument if someone can not follow the facts.

Take something simple like a complex math problem. You do not use an emotional argument to prove your case, just break it down into provable bits. Emotion weakens your case.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:10 PM   #64 (permalink)
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44% of Trump voters believe Trump repealed Obamacare. The idea that we could flip people that are choosing to live in an alternate reality is unfathomable. Sorry, I prefer focusing here in FL on getting the tens of thousands of fleeing PR disaster survivors resident ID, battling crosscheck tactics, and fighting to restore voting rights to those with felony convictions.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:19 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolene Benoir View Post
I'm going to address the "voting against your own interests" topic. Yes, large numbers of people are doing it, have been doing it for some time now, and imo are unlikely to change course. These are the people who voted Reagan, voted Bush Jr and voted Trump, even if they held their nose with the latter. Abso-fucking-lutely, they are voting against their own interest, in particular if they are in the working class. Almost every single thing that was and is being done under these leaders (I'm loath to even call Trump that) has been hugely detrimental and has been incremental beginning with Reagan in destroying their own economic interest as well as the rest of us who have had to live with their terrible fucking decisions.

It's my opinion that they have allowed themselves to be completely duped, at best, by liars who have preyed upon their desire to believe in the American dream, and at worst who have preyed upon their desire to feel superior to others or control others' lives.

These are the people who still believe Reagan's Morning in America bullshit, who fell for Bush' s everyman cleaning brush routine and believe somehow, in utter lunacy, that Trump will do a single thing for them. The reality is that each of these presidencies has absolutely gone out of their way to weaken and break the power of the common working man and woman. They were okay with it as long as it only hurt people of color, women and anyone lower on the totem pole than themselves. They felt they were safe. They thought whiteness/maleness/income/education protected them from what their voting choices have wrought upon the rest of us.

Well, welcome to reality. Greedy men, in particular, the ruling class weren't content with just taking, taking, and taking from the lowly, underserved, looked down upon poor and maligned. They didn't and don't distinguish between sending your grandfather's union factory job overseas to take advantage of even more poor and maligned people and sending your IT job for which you trained highly for and owe a ton of debt to attain overseas.

So, now it's their turn at the grinding wheel and NOW what is happening and has been happening for decades due to THEIR choices is suddenly a major issue and we (the people they left behind long ago) should rally behind them to not only, yet again, rank them higher on the totem pole of life, but rally behind them as they made yet another terrible deicision, the worst they have ever made as they threw the largest hissy fit to elect the most incompetent and dangerous man president, EVER and who right now, here and now, is absolutely destroying everything good about this country AND worsening the economic divide of which they rail about now that it has hit them.

We should reach out to them? Why? Note that I'm trying my best to not ascribe overt racism to some of their decisions but from my window it most definitely has that feel.

Nay, I would rather, as I always have, throw my lot in with people who are the poor and maligned and those who stand with them. These are the people deserving of my sympathy, camaraderie and effort.
I'll take this one since its somewhat directed in line with my statements.

First of all, I'm not suggesting that anyone take the time to do something cheesy like "go hug a racist" or any such drivel but what I am saying is that to reverse the course of conservatism in the United States is going to take a coalition that is going to have to include most of the entirety of the working class including many who are dismissed as "voting against their own self-interest."

Undoubtedly, a lesser coalition involving those groups typically non-supportive of the Republican ideals can and will flip the White House, flip the House, flip the Senate, flip a few State Houses, etc, but to push at the kind of level that is necessary to reverse some of the worst deprivations of American corporate ownership of our lives and our politics, is going to need an army that hasn't been seen in the US since the New Deal was struck. There are unfortunately thousands of examples of how progressive ideals won in the New Deal, during the Civil Rights era, and other notable points of progress that were reversed in no small part by the disintegration of the power of the working class at every race, creed, and color. Most of these were accomplished with Republicans but too many were accomplished with Democrats as well.

So no, I don't expect anyone to coddle the racists or the dominionists in fact, I'd much rather see them thrown under the nearest bus nor should, if such a movement were to happen, ever forget that there were some among them that were willing to engage in that kind of idiocy. But to reverse course, to remove the wind from the sails of those who feasibly have the power, namely corporate America and their peons in Washington, is going to require more than just 50% of those who even bother to vote.

Now realistically, I don't think its going to happen, I think the more likely scenario is that this nation continues course, reversing every few years, watching the pendulum swing, and as a whole the business continues to a point where either we experience another huge technological rush (one of the few economic mechanisms that tends to balance income gaps) or we enter a system of economic serfdom whereby Americans can't afford the things and services we make for the most part and continue to exist on wasteful consumerism while getting the occasional progressive bone thrown to us to keep us from going absolute ape shit with the likely candidates being UBI or Single-Payer.

TLR There's not enough political and economic power "among the people" to overturn the corporate and political taking of America otherwise.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:23 PM   #66 (permalink)
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First of all, I'm not suggesting that anyone take the time to do something cheesy like "go hug a racist" or any such drivel
It should always be an option, though.

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Old 12-29-2017, 12:26 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ramen Jedburgh View Post
It would be easier not to dismiss conservatives if they weren't also pushing things like "Climate Change is fake" and "The Earth is Flat" and "Abstinence Only" nonsense.

This sort of thing is why you get lumped as "Too dumb to matter" or whatever.
Side topic but if you want to have fun search youtube for earth and flat.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:29 PM   #68 (permalink)
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44% of Trump voters believe Trump repealed Obamacare.
You have to define your terms. The R efforts to do an outright repeal failed. Their repeal of the mandatory coverage provision (a key component) via the tax bill did not.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:32 PM   #69 (permalink)
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The majority of the working class (and lower income voters) vote liberal. The talking point that libs lost the working class is only valid when you specify white working class thus erasing all POC working class voters.

Also worth noting, FDR sold the New Deal in the south largely by excluding black farmers and having his surrogates tell white voters that blacks and Latinos would not gain benefits.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:37 PM   #70 (permalink)
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But to reverse course, to remove the wind from the sails of those who feasibly have the power, namely corporate America and their peons in Washington, is going to require more than just 50% of those who even bother to vote.
As I understand it, just under 60% of registered voters did, in fact, vote in the 2016 Presidential elections.

It's not an either/or choice, of course, but to my mind it might be worth devoting time and resources to persuading some of the 40% who didn't vote for anyone last time that there's some point in voting for you rather than concentrating on trying to change the minds of people who did vote, but for the wrong side.

As we saw recently in Alabama, the unusually large number of black voters who don't normally vote in state elections choosing to participate in this one can have dramatic effects on the outcome.

So I think, were I involved in planning the Democrats' election strategy for both the 2018 and 2020 elections, I would be asking not so much "how do I persuade people who voted for Trump in 2016 to switch their vote this time round?" but "how do I persuade people who wouldn't dream of voting for the Republican anyway that there's some point in turning out and voting for the Democrats' candidate this year?".

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Old 12-29-2017, 12:37 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Ok, racism has a huge component among Trump supporters but the only definitive factor even based on these is a stretch.

Alternate Factors
http://aese.psu.edu/directory/smm67/Election16.pdf

Factors agreeing with the predictors of race being primary but underscoring the importance of economic factors
http://people.umass.edu/schaffne/sch...conference.pdf

Race, factors of economic distress, low credit scores
Behind Trump's victory: Divisions by race, gender and education | Pew Research Center

You can't unequivocally ignore racism because you'd be an outright moron to do so especially considering who were are talking about. But you also can't unequivocally ignore and separate racism from issues of economics either. This is hardly a castigation of all other factors involved.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:42 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
As I understand it, just under 60% of registered voters did, in fact, vote in the 2016 Presidential elections.

It's not an either/or choice, of course, but to my mind it might be worth devoting time and resources to persuading some of the 40% who didn't vote for anyone last time that there's some point in voting for you rather than concentrating on trying to change the minds of people who actually voted for the other side last time.

As we saw recently in Alabama, the unusually large number of black voters who don't normally vote can have dramatic effects on the outcome of the election.

So I think, were I involved in planning the Democrats' election strategy for both the 2018 and 2020 elections, I would be asking not so much "how do I persuade people who voted for Trump in 2016 to switch their vote this time round?" but "how do I persuade people who wouldn't dream of voting for the Republican anyway that there's some point in turning out and voting for the Democrats' candidate this year?".
I think there is room for both honestly. You don't however have to do it by in the way that I think many would suggest by coddling the racists but rather in providing a message that specifically derails the issue of race and instead focuses on issues that are going to effect everyone. You aren't going to gain ground among the hardliners, I agree, but selling something wonky like an "infrastructure bank" may be difficult but let's say something like "repairing bridges and roads in areas where Republicans won't drive their Lexuses" will. Focusing on all of the labor force doesn't mean exclusively chasing after white working class voters but it does include them, even the racists.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:55 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wrong Weatherwax View Post
But you also can't unequivocally ignore and separate racism from issues of economics either. This is hardly a castigation of all other factors involved.
If you want to pretend like there’s a way to distinguish between passive and active racists and reach them, no one can talk you out of it. Have at thee. But by any measure of reality Dems had an actual economic plan while Trump had none and the majority of voters who said they prioritized economics chose the Dem ticket. Midwest working class workers benefitted largely from bailouts. Every credible examination of the data identifies racism and xenophobia as the overwhelming factors.

But the *actual* irony here is that the elite liberals are the ones trying to pander to the white working class. Bernie and Biden are fighting to see who can play white savior harder while the NYT and other publications are more or less camped out up the ass of Trump supporters. The white trust fund progressives that couldn’t bring themselves to support HRC are all insisting we have to pander the white voters and “give up identity politics.”

And guess what? POC voters have taken note of that shit. That’s why with one (maybe two) exceptions the Dem candidates that won the waves of special elections had nothing to do with the Bernie clan. Instead they have been boots on the ground sewing up our actual voting base.

It’s the rank and file Dems that are refusing to center whiteness, not the liberal elites.

Last edited by SalStrange; 12-29-2017 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 12-29-2017, 01:05 PM   #74 (permalink)
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... providing a message that specifically derails the issue of race and instead focuses on issues that are going to effect everyone.
There was this old white guy that tried to run as a Dem while ignoring issues of race. He got trounced in the primary.
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Old 12-29-2017, 01:10 PM   #75 (permalink)
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There was this old white guy that tried to run as a Dem while ignoring issues of race. He got trounced in the primary.
You know, your Bernie antagonisms might be pointed if I'd actually voted or stumped for Bernie. Clinton, while I'm no fan, clearly had the best shot.
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