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Old 12-28-2017, 09:32 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Feels -

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When I did turn to untangle my curls, I saw a silken cradle in a hazel branch. I have thinks that the wind did just tangle my curls so I would have seeing of that cradle. It was cream, with a hazel leaf half-way round it. I put it to my ear and I did listen. It had a little voice. It was not a tone voice. It was a heart voice. While I did listen, I did feel its feels. It has lovely ones. And I did hurry away in the way that does lead to the house of the girl that has no seeing. I went that way so she too might know its feels and hear its heart voice. She does so like to feel things. She has seeing by feels.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4381...-h/43818-h.htm
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:34 PM   #27 (permalink)
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vi vs emacs
You can actually install and use them both.

I know, heresy.
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:38 PM   #28 (permalink)
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You can actually install and use them both.

I know, heresy.
Not Heresy ...
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:47 PM   #29 (permalink)
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You can actually install and use them both.

I know, heresy.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:17 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I don't see anything wrong in commandeering the other side's jibes to turn against them. I've seen plenty of people jeering at alt-right and Republican "snowflakes" for being "triggered" by things they don't want to hear, and for needing a "safe space" where people don't challenge their views.
Maybe selective attention on my part, but it does appear the alt-right (& religious right) don't much like facts and prefer their own feelings.

I also have the dubious pleasure of working with someone who is very much an anti-science sort though more of a populist nutjob than a rwnj.

( I wonder, maybe populism is a common factor )
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Old 12-29-2017, 02:55 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
vi vs emacs
paraphrased from a post I wrote last year on Slashdot:

vi? What are you, some suspender wearing greybeard who still uses an ASR33, and calls bicycles "velocipedes"?
vi is archaic and arcane. What you should be using is....vim. ;-)

/me waits for a low 4 digit UID guy to extoll the virtues of "ed".

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EDT !!!!!!!
ED? It's for neckbearded, suspender wearing, curmudgeonly *nix grognards running Unix on a PDP-11!

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That's the feel, here is the fact.

Nano.
Take a Third way, will you. Now both the vi and emacs camps are gunning for you. ;-) What about joe in jstar mode?

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Word
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Ever tried editing source code written by someone who thought word or notepad was a text editor?
Ever try editing ANYTHING who thought notepad was a text editor

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You can actually install and use them both.

I know, heresy.
Heretic! Barbarian!

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Exactly. More Seriously most of the text editing I do, I do in vim though I don't actually know much vim, only enough to delete lines, insert text, search/replace and save/quit.
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Old 12-29-2017, 03:15 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Old 12-29-2017, 04:07 AM   #33 (permalink)
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EDT !!!!!!!
REAL EDT?

Or EDIT/TPU?
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Old 12-29-2017, 06:03 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Unpopular opinion I'm sure but I've also noticed a rather boring propensity of US Liberals to think that facts are going to make their case for them. While I certainly agree that having facts on your side is important and recognizing that the American Right has a tenuous relationship with the truth, I find the sheer amount of hubris from Liberals to be often just plainly ridiculous. The statement "reality has a liberal bias" makes me want to throw something at whatever smug motherfucker happens to make it at the time.

The right in the US seems to have no facts but a strong framework which even if its based on propaganda, superstition, and fear has managed to win them a huge portion of control from the state houses to the White House whereas contrarily, liberals seem to have all the facts and no framework. I'm not going to regale the choir with stories of Obama, I'm honestly not a huge fan but he got one thing right about the framework, its a human, personal approach that requires meeting as many "deplorables" as it does meeting the donor class. The more left-wing arm of the Democrats seem to get that you need facts as well as message/framework. Here's hoping that the Liberals of the US actually listen to the groundswell of left-leaning voters and do something about it maybe by taking a minute to stop breaking their arms slapping their own backs because they have all the "facts."
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:42 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Free Xue View Post
You can actually install and use them both.

I know, heresy.
Knowing the reaction I once stood up in a terminal room and exclaimed this about our unix system "we have both hed and beav". They were the names of the Harris editor (a text editor) and a binary editor but I just could not resist how they sounded.
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:49 AM   #36 (permalink)
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ED? It's for neckbearded, suspender wearing, curmudgeonly *nix grognards running Unix on a PDP-11!
No, EDT. ED's VMS cousin. There the argument is between EDT and TPU (aka, EVE). Actually both have their uses, EDT is great for low-speed modems but TPU is brilliant if you are creating complicated macros.
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:51 AM   #37 (permalink)
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When I started at Berkeley vi hadn't been invented and emacs wouldn't run on anything that didn't have 36 bits... the editor wars were between TECO and RE, the Rand Editor. TECO's draw was an incomprehensible programming language. REs hot feature was windows. You could divide up your screen into as many windows into as many files as would fit.

Since the whole screen was only 80x24 characters and it was kind of too easy to accidentally split the current window, a new RE user's terminal tended to look like a Mondrian painting accompanied by plaintive calls for how to get out.
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:54 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Unpopular opinion I'm sure but I've also noticed a rather boring propensity of US Liberals to think that facts are going to make their case for them.
I would much rather be informed by facts about an issue than an emotional opinion. The latter does not tell you anything about whether the opinion is correct or not, just that the person spouting it believes it. Meanwhile facts pretty much speak for themselves. The right has dumbed down the american education system to the point where you need emotional opinions though.
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:55 AM   #39 (permalink)
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No, EDT. ED's VMS cousin. There the argument is between EDT and TPU (aka, EVE). Actually both have their uses, EDT is great for low-speed modems but TPU is brilliant if you are creating complicated macros.
Did you ever use EDIT/SOS?

(OH WOW I JUST FOUND A PDF OF THE SOS MANUAL)

Edit: that seems like a more powerful version of SOS than I had to use.
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:55 AM   #40 (permalink)
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When I started at Berkeley vi hadn't been invented and emacs wouldn't run on anything that didn't have 36 bits...
Separate google searches say they were both invented in 1976?
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Old 12-29-2017, 08:01 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Looks like it was just before my use of editors as it dealt with tops? My use of mainframes started in the 80s so I was using VAXen and later ALPHAs.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:30 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wrong Weatherwax View Post
Unpopular opinion I'm sure but I've also noticed a rather boring propensity of US Liberals to think that facts are going to make their case for them. While I certainly agree that having facts on your side is important and recognizing that the American Right has a tenuous relationship with the truth, I find the sheer amount of hubris from Liberals to be often just plainly ridiculous. The statement "reality has a liberal bias" makes me want to throw something at whatever smug motherfucker happens to make it at the time.

The right in the US seems to have no facts but a strong framework which even if its based on propaganda, superstition, and fear has managed to win them a huge portion of control from the state houses to the White House whereas contrarily, liberals seem to have all the facts and no framework. I'm not going to regale the choir with stories of Obama, I'm honestly not a huge fan but he got one thing right about the framework, its a human, personal approach that requires meeting as many "deplorables" as it does meeting the donor class. The more left-wing arm of the Democrats seem to get that you need facts as well as message/framework. Here's hoping that the Liberals of the US actually listen to the groundswell of left-leaning voters and do something about it maybe by taking a minute to stop breaking their arms slapping their own backs because they have all the "facts."
What she actually said was,
Quote:
I know there are only 60 days left to make our case — and don’t get complacent, don’t see the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment and think well he’s done this time. We are living in a volatile political environment. You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?

[Laughter/applause]

The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well
I'd have thought that, in an election campaign, you want to concentrate your energies resources on persuading the people who seem most likely to switch -- that is, the
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people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they’re in a dead-end.
rather than the people she describes as "deplorables" -- that is, people like the KKK or new-Nazis or Christian dominionists, for the simple reason they're going to be easier to persuade to support you.

I agree about needing to reach voters as well as "members of the donor class," though you apparently need a lot of money to run a successful campaign, but to my mind it's precisely the Trump voters who aren't "deplorables" that the Democrats need to concentrate on, since they're likely to be easier to persuade.

Furthermore, if you look at the recent senatorial election in Alabama, I think you'll see that Doug Jones beat Roy Moore for two main reasons.

One is that a lot of people who would normally vote Republican couldn't bring themselves to vote for Roy Moore so either wrote in a candidate or didn't vote.

The other is that a lot of voters -- predominantly black -- who would never have dreamed of voting for Roy Moore but who didn't usually vote for anyone, for whatever reason, were persuaded to turn out and vote for Jones to keep Roy Moore out. To my mind Doug Jones owes his victory to the herculean efforts of the NAACP in getting people out to vote for him.

Had Doug Jones spent-- wasted, to my mind -- his time going out and meeting KKK supporters and Dominionists and suchlike "deplorables" rather than on targeting wavering Republican voters and potential Democrat supporters, then probably the election would have gone the other way.

ETA: Case in point -- Roy Moore and his supporters doubtless feel it's impossible he lost the election, so there must have been massive voter fraud, but the fact is that there wasn't massive fraud and he lost. Or, as Alabama's Secretary of State said when certifying the results yesterday, "People are entitled to their own opinions but they're not entitled to their own facts".

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Old 12-29-2017, 09:52 AM   #43 (permalink)
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What she actually said was,

I'd have thought that, in an election campaign, you want to concentrate your energies resources on persuading the people who seem most likely to switch -- that is, the
rather than the people she describes as "deplorables" -- that is, people like the KKK or new-Nazis or Christian dominionists, for the simple reason they're going to be easier to persuade to support you.

I agree about needing to reach voters as well as "members of the donor class," though you apparently need a lot of money to run a successful campaign, but to my mind it's precisely the Trump voters who aren't "deplorables" that the Democrats need to concentrate on, since they're likely to be easier to persuade.

Furthermore, if you look at the recent senatorial election in Alabama, I think you'll see that Doug Jones beat Roy Moore for two main reasons.

One is that a lot of people who would normally vote Republican couldn't bring themselves to vote for Roy Moore so either wrote in a candidate or didn't vote.

The other is that a lot of voters -- predominantly black -- who would never have dreamed of voting for Roy Moore but who didn't usually vote for anyone, for whatever reason, were persuaded to turn out and vote for Jones to keep Roy Moore out. To my mind Doug Jones owes his victory to the herculean efforts of the NAACP in getting people out to vote for him.

Had Doug Jones spent-- wasted, to my mind -- his time going out and meeting KKK supporters and Dominionists and suchlike "deplorables" rather than on targeting wavering Republican voters and potential Democrat supporters, then probably the election would have gone the other way.
Sure, and in the context of people like the KKK, the Christian Dominionists, or Neo-Nazis I'd agree wholeheartedly because no matter what, those people aren't going to support that cause. I would counter however that there is still a good deal of hubris in dismissing a large number of people who have collectively fallen under that name, and I admit to using it flippantly rather than in a Clinton specific context, who are viewed as ignorant rednecks, hillbillies, self-hating women/gays/blacks, or any group that "votes against their own self-interest." I'm not making a specific point about Hilary here, I've made that one plenty of times where I'm sure people on this forum are sick of hearing me.

I've seen it enough on this forum alone where dismissal of what used to constitute a good portion of the left's working class strategy has been dismissed by many as (my words) "too dumb to matter." And on the more general point about the "deplorables" remark, that narrative has been co-opted, rather brilliantly by right-wing operatives. The left doesn't need to make that kind of mistake again.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:54 AM   #44 (permalink)
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You. Cannot. Talk. People. Out. Of. Racism. Trumpism offers complete validation of white supremacy. That is - or should be - off the table for liberals. The Sanders approach of centering whiteness and being tone deaf toward minorities lost him the most reliable left voting base in the country by huge margins. It has zero to do with framing a position the right way. It has everything to do with an aging right whipped into fear and terror by decades of propaganda and various isms.

What the Left needs to be focused on (and both Va and Al bear this out) is combating voter suppression while engaging and supporting women and POC voters. The “liberals need to climb down off their high horse” talking point persists despite the fact that the lower income voting blocks swing liberal. It’s the smug elites pretendin to be working class that skew right.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:54 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I would much rather be informed by facts about an issue than an emotional opinion. The latter does not tell you anything about whether the opinion is correct or not, just that the person spouting it believes it. Meanwhile facts pretty much speak for themselves. The right has dumbed down the american education system to the point where you need emotional opinions though.
And I disagree that facts speak for themselves based purely on the successful use of propaganda pushed in no small part by the right. The facts need someone to speak for them, eloquently, with character, and with emotion.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:58 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I've seen it enough on this forum alone where dismissal of what used to constitute a good portion of the left's working class strategy has been dismissed by many as (my words) "too dumb to matter."
The traditional strategies aren’t too dumb to matter, they’re too racist to matter. The rest of your assumption only holds up if you ignore/exclude POC from “working class” like, ya know, Sanders and company.
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:05 AM   #47 (permalink)
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The traditional strategies aren’t too dumb to matter, they’re too racist to matter. The rest of your assumption only holds up if you ignore/exclude POC from “working class” like, ya know, Sanders and company.
And an outright dismissal of a huge voting block as being "too racist." I'd say my point stands.
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:14 AM   #48 (permalink)
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And an outright dismissal of a huge voting block as being "too racist." I'd say my point stands.
Not to interrupt the bullshit fairy tale you’ve built yourself, but no one on the left dismissed them. They have dismissed themselves by choosing to side with white supremacy. That choice isn’t something you can talk people out of.

If you’re suggesting that the left needs to activate the same racism, then that is both immoral and stupid strategy. The left is never going to out racist the right (although parts of it tries) and any attempt to do so would sacrifice their most engaged and important base voters.

The right has all their eggs in one basket. The left doesn’t have that luxury.
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:15 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Sure, and in the context of people like the KKK, the Christian Dominionists, or Neo-Nazis I'd agree wholeheartedly because no matter what, those people aren't going to support that cause. I would counter however that there is still a good deal of hubris in dismissing a large number of people who have collectively fallen under that name, and I admit to using it flippantly rather than in a Clinton specific context, who are viewed as ignorant rednecks, hillbillies, self-hating women/gays/blacks, or any group that "votes against their own self-interest." I'm not making a specific point about Hilary here, I've made that one plenty of times where I'm sure people on this forum are sick of hearing me.

I've seen it enough on this forum alone where dismissal of what used to constitute a good portion of the left's working class strategy has been dismissed by many as (my words) "too dumb to matter." And on the more general point about the "deplorables" remark, that narrative has been co-opted, rather brilliantly by right-wing operatives. The left doesn't need to make that kind of mistake again.
So, in fact, you're saying pretty much what Hillary Clinton said, that is, that people shouldn't write off all Trump supporters as "deplorables" (or "too dumb to matter" or whatever) but should look at the real economic problems that persuaded many decent people to hold their noses and voted for Trump regardless of whatever reservations they have about him, and offer people real solutions to them.

I agree with you that it's self-defeating to sit back and say that, since we've got the facts on our side, people are bound to recognise them when they are pointed out to them. There's a whole book to be written (don't worry, I'm not threatening to... yet) about the assumptions that progressive politics have taken over from Christianity, including that you just need to show the heathens the Truth and they'll either acknowledge it and come over to your side or that they'll reject it and demonstrate their irredeemable nature.

However, from a practical point of view, I think that political campaigning in an election has to concentrate on identifying potential supporters, and ensuring they actually turn out and vote for you, and on identifying wavering supporters of your opponents, and trying to win them over or, if you can't do that, at least persuade them not to vote for your opponent.

People have only a limited amount of time and energy and, in election campaigns here, I'm used to using what time I have when canvassing on explaining to people who would normally vote Labour but aren't too sure about such and such a policy or who are thinking of voting Conservative because of such-and-such even though they don't like many aspect of the Conservatives.

I'm not going to spend much time with people who tell me they're dyed-in-the-wool Conservatives, not because I think they're stupid or deplorable or whatever but because I recognise that I'm wasting my time and theirs trying to persuade them to change their minds.
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:17 AM   #50 (permalink)
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To be fair, it'd be a lot easier to not dismiss entire chunks of voters as racists if they weren't, y'know, racists.
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