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Old 12-20-2017, 02:28 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Which is frustrating. If their assumption is correct, fine. If not, well ....

It could be just something like a heart attack. If it is a wolf or a human though they are putting their town in danger.
However, at least according to the report, there is no evidence to suggest that a human was responsible, and all the available evidence is completely consistent with the proposition that she was killed by one or both of the dogs.

If we accept she may have been killed by a wolf, but also that there is no evidence that she was, how much time should the police spend looking for an animal that they have no particular reason to believe exists?
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Old 12-20-2017, 02:33 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Goochland County is only about 20-30 miles outside of Richmond. It's rural, but not THAT rural. Coyotes aren't a big problem there.
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Old 12-20-2017, 02:44 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
If we accept she may have been killed by a wolf, but also that there is no evidence that she was, how much time should the police spend looking for an animal that they have no particular reason to believe exists?
I don't see that there's really anything to be done, period. She is dead and the dogs have been euthanized, so they are all out of the picture. There's no evidence to guide further action in any direction, unless forensics finds something unexpected. For the most part, we're just aimlessly chattering, eh?

My main takeaway is the knowledge that most probably at some time in the future, my dogs and/or cats will nibble on my dead corpse. Given my history of animal rescue and social isolation, the odds run strongly in that direction.

I'm okay with that.
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Old 12-20-2017, 02:52 PM   #29 (permalink)
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It doesn't have to be a rural area. I've seen wild deer feeding on the side of the street on SW Murray in Beaverton, in an area that is all commercial.

Coyotes are more likely to go after domestic dogs as prey. Any dog that survives sometimes becomes accepted and goes feral. Something which happens in the South quite frequently. Many of the so called coyote packs are, in reality, coyote and dog hybrids. Thing is coyotes are not pack animals like wolves are and wolves are more likely to avoid human populated areas than coyotes are. So it isn't inconceivable that the dogs may have been involved in a fight, either with a coyote or each other and she tried to break the fight up. Knowing you risk being bitten doesn't always stop one from trying to end the horror you see happening before your eyes.
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Old 12-20-2017, 03:02 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Eating the rib cage shows what dogs do post-mortem of the owner's death. It says nothing about what caused the death.
Wait wait a sec. What happened to dogs sadly moping and staying with their owner's body to protect it after s/he unexpectedly passes away? You hear about it happening in the news every so often; in fact it's one of those things that's often said in general sense, one difference between cats and dogs as pets is that if you die at home your cats will eat you and your dogs won't.
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Old 12-20-2017, 03:15 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Wait wait a sec. What happened to dogs sadly moping and staying with their owner's body to protect it after s/he unexpectedly passes away? You hear about it happening in the news every so often; in fact it's one of those things that's often said in general sense, one difference between cats and dogs as pets is that if you die at home your cats will eat you and your dogs won't.
I've only heard that from people who refuse to believe dogs and cats have a common ancestor. You know. The same ones who refuse to believe evolution is a thing. But that's just my experience. YMMV
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Old 12-20-2017, 03:24 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Wait wait a sec. What happened to dogs sadly moping and staying with their owner's body to protect it after s/he unexpectedly passes away? You hear about it happening in the news every so often; in fact it's one of those things that's often said in general sense, one difference between cats and dogs as pets is that if you die at home your cats will eat you and your dogs won't.
Dogs can absolutely eat you just as eagerly as anything else can.

People (myself included) tend to anthropomorphize pets, dogs specifically, but they're animals. End of story. I have no doubt that Pca would use us as sustenance if we passed away unnoticed and he was starving.

It's not a pleasant thought that the little peanut perched across my shoulders right now would treat me like a side of beef, but it's realistic.
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Old 12-20-2017, 03:36 PM   #33 (permalink)
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If a dog bites you in the throat, chances are there will be tooth/teeth marks on the bones, depending on how deep the bite is.
There aren't any bones in the front of the throat (apart from the Hyoid, which is pretty high up into the jaw).
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Old 12-20-2017, 04:14 PM   #34 (permalink)
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There aren't any bones in the front of the throat (apart from the Hyoid, which is pretty high up into the jaw).
Hello. I did say DEPENDING ON HOW DEEP THE BITE IS.

I'm not a large person. A dog the size of an average pit could easily cover my throat completely with their mouth. And would definitely come into contact with all those bones in the back of my neck that are part of my spine, especially if the attack came from the side or the rear.

I don't recall saying dogs only attack from the front either. Or did I misunderstand the implications your statement made or read something into it that isn't there?
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Old 12-20-2017, 04:16 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I stand corrected on what I previously posted about these 2 dogs being trained for fighting. Initially that's what the reports said but that's since been corrected by law enforcement that're investigating this case.

As to Wolfeyes saying that dachshunds & golden retievers can also kill humans. Of course anything is possible but usually people look at the odds. I went & looked up fatal dog attacked in the US & found that since 1887 when records first listed fatal dog attacks that there were in fact 2 cases where dachshunds killed humans. One was a 2 week old baby in 1979 & the other was an 87 yr old woman in 2005 tho that is questionable since there was also a lab involved. I couldn't find one instance of a golden retiever killing anyone tho of course that's possible too. During that same amount of time there were hundreds of deaths by pitbull type dogs & rottweilers. Those two types of dogs (out of a large list of breeds) accounted for 67% of the deaths by dog attacks.

Again, I'm not saying all those types of dogs are bad & there's no doubt that some attacked with good cause because of neglect, teasing, etc. But the facts are that some types of dogs are bigger & stronger in size as well as biting power - plus aggressive natures. When you look up any breed of dog in the AKC list or any other dog breed list you'll see their physical & emotional attributes & some are just far more aggressive in nature even without training than other breeds.

Dogs are wonderful animals & do many fantastic things for people. But to think they're all "Lassie" types that're going to rescue you & be loving & loyal is just silly.
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Old 12-20-2017, 04:21 PM   #36 (permalink)
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After my experience back in NC, I've lost my "aw don't be mean to pit bulls they're just cute doggies" mindset. It was a learning experience.

Not that I'm going to go Rambo on the breed. I'm just FAR more likely to give them a wide berth than previously, or any other breed.
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Old 12-20-2017, 04:23 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I've only heard that from people who refuse to believe dogs and cats have a common ancestor. You know. The same ones who refuse to believe evolution is a thing. But that's just my experience. YMMV
Yes. I am a cat person but grew up on a farm: cats, dogs, chickens, a pet mouse, and things like people renting out a field for their horses. I never forgot any of them had a wild ancestor no matter how much artificial selection had gone on in their species since they met humans.

Might a beloved pet stick around a deceased owner looking like they are guarding it? I am guessing often. But it is because they are used to said person feeding it and providing shelter, any emotional connection is us anthropomorphizing the situation.
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Old 12-20-2017, 04:52 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I never claimed all dogs are like Lassie. Or anything even remotely like that. I put a few facts about canines out there and that is all I've done.
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Old 12-20-2017, 04:58 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Yes. I am a cat person but grew up on a farm: cats, dogs, chickens, a pet mouse, and things like people renting out a field for their horses. I never forgot any of them had a wild ancestor no matter how much artificial selection had gone on in their species since they met humans.

Might a beloved pet stick around a deceased owner looking like they are guarding it? I am guessing often. But it is because they are used to said person feeding it and providing shelter, any emotional connection is us anthropomorphizing the situation.
Sorry but I disagree. Animals do display emotions whether humans want to accept that for what it is or not. They do become attached to those who feed and care for them and not just because the human is a source of food. They need and seek out companionship and not just for procreation either. Misery isn't the only thing that loves company.

Or do you have some other explanation as to why some species mate for life when others don't? Surely from an evolutionary point of view mating for life is the last thing you would want to happen.
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Old 12-20-2017, 05:06 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Might a beloved pet stick around a deceased owner looking like they are guarding it? I am guessing often. But it is because they are used to said person feeding it and providing shelter, any emotional connection is us anthropomorphizing the situation.
You're conflating two different situations, so it's a little difficult to figure out what point you're trying to make.

1) Whether or not a pet hangs around the dead body of its owner probably doesn't tell us a lot about the animals feelings while the owner was alive. Animals recognize death, but how they grieve is not necessarily tied to how they treat the body. Some species -- such as elephants and crows -- focus on the body of the deceased in displays of commemoration. Others will lose interest in the body quickly, although they may continue to grieve emotionally for a long time.

2) "any emotional connection is us anthropomorphizing the situation"

You appear to be saying that animals don't have emotional connections to their owners, that they're just hanging around a LIVE owner just because they get food and shelter from that person.

That's plain daft. Seriously, that reductionism of our relationships isn't even remotely supported by evidence. Animals are capable of very deep emotional connections, both with other animals and with humans. Dogs especially have a long, deeply entwined history that has affected the evolution of both our species. You might as well say "Children hang around their parents because they get fed and housed." Well yeah, but there's a lot more to it than that.
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Old 12-20-2017, 05:11 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I saw that ninja edit.
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Old 12-20-2017, 06:02 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I don't recall saying dogs only attack from the front either. Or did I misunderstand the implications your statement made or read something into it that isn't there?
You said "If a dog bites you in the throat".

To me, the 'throat' is the soft bit at the front, containing the trachea, the oesophagus, the carotid arteries and some major nerves. The bit at the back, with the bones, is part of the neck. YMMV
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Old 12-20-2017, 06:14 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I have to weigh in on the emotional bonds of animals - cats, at least, do mourn. I've seen it happen, and it was weird because the one cat didn't get along with the one who died in the first instance. Second instance, well, someone abandoned some kittens under landlord's window AC... we ended up with both of them - one got sick a few years ago [they were 9 or so years old], and the one who survived never quite returned to normal.

Now, whether that extends to the humans? Well, I watched the cats mourn the human in the family who died, too, so...

That said, do I think if no one else is about and the cats are hungry, that they won't nom on me? No, and honestly, I'd rather be dinner than have them starve. [Same for the doggo]
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Old 12-20-2017, 06:21 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Old 12-20-2017, 06:26 PM   #45 (permalink)
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You said "If a dog bites you in the throat".

To me, the 'throat' is the soft bit at the front, containing the trachea, the oesophagus, the carotid arteries and some major nerves. The bit at the back, with the bones, is part of the neck. YMMV
Ah. Yes my wording could have been better. I should have used the word neck. Sorry.

And yes my neck is that small. I wear an XS or an XXS adult motorcycle helmet after all and I stand 5' 4". All that swimming (swim team) broadened my shoulders a bit but didn't do a thing for my neck. lol
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Old 12-20-2017, 06:43 PM   #46 (permalink)
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However, at least according to the report, there is no evidence to suggest that a human was responsible, and all the available evidence is completely consistent with the proposition that she was killed by one or both of the dogs.

If we accept she may have been killed by a wolf, but also that there is no evidence that she was, how much time should the police spend looking for an animal that they have no particular reason to believe exists?
Clearly werewolves were responsible.
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Old 12-20-2017, 06:46 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Wait wait a sec. What happened to dogs sadly moping and staying with their owner's body to protect it after s/he unexpectedly passes away? You hear about it happening in the news every so often; in fact it's one of those things that's often said in general sense, one difference between cats and dogs as pets is that if you die at home your cats will eat you and your dogs won't.
When they get hungry enough humans will start eating eachother. It's not exactly a stretch to say dogs will too.
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Old 12-20-2017, 06:48 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Some dogs don't even wait until you're dead.
Google 'dog eats owner's toe' .. i dare you..


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Old 12-20-2017, 07:01 PM   #49 (permalink)
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People (myself included) tend to anthropomorphize pets, dogs specifically...
Yes! So many of the replies are talking as if it's unheard of for a large dog to viciously attack it's owner, it's not!

Regardless of what happened with this one case, there is an epidemic of willful ignorance among the owners of large dogs (not necessarily the people here).

Anyone who professionally works with dogs can tell you all about all the complex procedures they follow with dogs to teach them structure and who is in charge. The vast majority of dog owners just don't realize this matters (including my own parents). The result is often going to be a big dog who really does love their family, but actually thinks that it's the alpha.

Dogs like this can be extremely affectionate with their family, but this really just gives people a false sense of security. The animal can still turn violent very easily if it feels like it's dominance is threatened.

Proper dog training will teach the dog that the humans are alpha, which makes them enormously less likely to think it has to defend the leadership position it doesn't have.

Edit: Removed a false statement

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Old 12-20-2017, 07:05 PM   #50 (permalink)
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When they get hungry enough humans will start eating eachother. It's not exactly a stretch to say dogs will too.
Why am I picturing that scene in Game of Thrones when Ramsey says his dogs are loyal to him, and Sansa said, "They were, but now they're starving..."
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