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Old 12-09-2017, 12:24 PM   #51 (permalink)
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This whole Jerusalem bollox (a city Donald probably couldn't locate on the map) stems directly from the right wing evangelicals' juvenile fantasy of a Rapture brought on by the unification of Jerusalem and the death of all non-believers.

That's a fantasy endorsed by Sheldon Adelson for 10s of millions of dollars. And a huge chunk of that evangelical base honestly believe what they read in the fiction series "Left Behind".

For Trump, an Embassy in Jerusalem Is a Political Decision, Not a Diplomatic One
Yesterday I was thinking just how much the Repugs have been doing like in the Left Behind series. What would you call trying to force something (the apocalypse) to happen that doesn't exist?

Insanity.
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Old 12-09-2017, 12:54 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Yesterday I was thinking just how much the Repugs have been doing like in the Left Behind series. What would you call trying to force something (the apocalypse) to happen that doesn't exist?

Insanity.
I know it's not exactly what you asked, but the phrase for what the Evangelicals think they're doing is imminentizing the eschaton, which conservatives used to think was a very bad idea. People who've read The Illuminatus! Trilogy will know why.

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Old 12-09-2017, 02:47 PM   #53 (permalink)
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How many people will die because of trumps fucked up decisions? Is it almost time again? Time for the 2nd Nuclear War?
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Old 12-09-2017, 07:01 PM   #54 (permalink)
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How many people will die because of trumps fucked up decisions?
From all of them? Well, not even a year in and there is already a serious threat of a nuclear exchange in one part of the world and he has caused 'tensions' in another part to get hotter. That is not even counting things that much up domestic policy and foreign aid.
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Old 12-10-2017, 12:45 AM   #55 (permalink)
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If he doesn't, then he's backing the wrong horse.
Horsemen. Or perhaps he's hoping his immigrant ban or wall with keep them out?

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Old 12-10-2017, 03:13 AM   #56 (permalink)
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I know it's not exactly what you asked, but the phrase for what the Evangelicals think they're doing is imminentizing the eschaton, which conservatives used to think was a very bad idea. People who've read The Illuminatus! Trilogy will know why.

Does trying to hasten the apocalypse really count as that, though? I mean that's just trying to make God's judgment happen more quickly. Whenever I've seen "immanentize the eschaton" used, it's usually referring to an attempt to make Earth heaven-like in some way without waiting for God's judgment. So like the idea of eliminating the need for different countries and replacing them with a single global government that meets all peoples' needs and eliminates resource competition would be immanentizing the eschaton, because a world like that is not supposed to exist until God makes it that way after the apocalypse.
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Old 12-10-2017, 06:38 AM   #57 (permalink)
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"Immanentize the Eschaton" comes from the Principia Discordia (Hail Eris) and was popularized in Robert Anton Wilson's Illuminatus (Fnord) novels. I've always seen it used to mean the literal end of the world.



According to Wikipedia it was originally some kind of weird '50s radical reactionary meme that Malaclypse commandeered. I've not read any actual conservative texts using it, it seems to have gone out of favor on the right.
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Old 12-10-2017, 07:24 AM   #58 (permalink)
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You've got to immanentize the eschaton
Eliminate the pantheon
Latch on to the positron
Don't mess with Mister In-Between
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:06 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Does trying to hasten the apocalypse really count as that, though? I mean that's just trying to make God's judgment happen more quickly. Whenever I've seen "immanentize the eschaton" used, it's usually referring to an attempt to make Earth heaven-like in some way without waiting for God's judgment. So like the idea of eliminating the need for different countries and replacing them with a single global government that meets all peoples' needs and eliminates resource competition would be immanentizing the eschaton, because a world like that is not supposed to exist until God makes it that way after the apocalypse.
Mainstream Christianity -- certainly Catholics and Lutherans both, and I suspect most mainstream Protestant churches too -- regard the whole "end-times" business, and especially the rule of the righteous on earth after the anti-Christ's rule but before the Last Judgment, as heretical. The Apocalypse is a single event terminating human history, not a sequence of events as described in the "left behind" novels or elsewhere.

Furthermore, according to traditional beliefs, the Resurrection of the Dead and Last Judgment will take place at a time of God's choosing and there's nothing anyone, not even Donald Trump, can do to hasten or delay this.

So to my mind, trying to get the US Embassy moved to Jerusalem in the hope that this will somehow hasten the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem and thus help precipitate the Apocalypse are very much the sort of religious heresy from which the conservatives' pejorative use of the term "immanentize the eschaton" (achieving heaven on earth before the last judgment, whether through initiating the thousand year rule of the saints -- rather unfortunate historical echoes there -- or the dictatorship of the proletariat) is derived.
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:12 AM   #60 (permalink)
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A Discussion About Jerusalem, Al Aqsa and Trump’s Declaration – Muslim Girl
A lot I didn't know covered in this article.
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During his first year in office we see President Trump facing serious challenges (too many to name.) Because of this, he had to prepay the Israeli lobby, Christian Zionists and Jewish Zionists. He sees the challenges of the Russia investigation and wants to ensure the Israeli lobby support by taking this controversial step that has high emotional value for that lobby.

However, this recognition does not change the lives of the 300,000+ Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in East Jerusalem. If you read the declaration closely, it does not rule out a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem. The real problem I see with the declaration is that the administration has backed away from the American position of supporting a two-state solution. President Trump has given the Israelis veto power on that solution.

And further suppress the Palestinians.
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Old 12-10-2017, 11:06 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Mainstream Christianity -- certainly Catholics and Lutherans both, and I suspect most mainstream Protestant churches too -- regard the whole "end-times" business, and especially the rule of the righteous on earth after the anti-Christ's rule but before the Last Judgment, as heretical. The Apocalypse is a single event terminating human history, not a sequence of events as described in the "left behind" novels or elsewhere.

Furthermore, according to traditional beliefs, the Resurrection of the Dead and Last Judgment will take place at a time of God's choosing and there's nothing anyone, not even Donald Trump, can do to hasten or delay this.

So to my mind, trying to get the US Embassy moved to Jerusalem in the hope that this will somehow hasten the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem and thus help precipitate the Apocalypse are very much the sort of religious heresy from which the conservatives' pejorative use of the term "immanentize the eschaton" (achieving heaven on earth before the last judgment, whether through initiating the thousand year rule of the saints -- rather unfortunate historical echoes there -- or the dictatorship of the proletariat) is derived.
You're making too much sense, Innula. You can't reason with fanatics, though. They're already unchained from reality.
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Old 12-10-2017, 01:37 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Um, I'm pretty sure we've more than one senator for the entire panhandle - sadly, yes, the one for here is an idiot, but...

Pensacola itself isn't a big city, and we're lumped in with a large number of small towns and farmland. And we're a strange place - some of us are extremely progressive and then there are the people who support dipshit in chief.
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Old 12-13-2017, 11:53 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Palestine and the OIC announce that they will no longer accept US participation in the peace process with Israel

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An extraordinary Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) meeting was held in Istanbul on Wednesday in order to coordinate and counter the Muslim world's response to the Trump administration's decision.

The resulting Istanbul Declaration on Freedom for al Quds, the Arabic name for Jerusalem, calls the move "null and void", and calls on the whole world to recognise an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its occupied capital.

The US' new stance means it can no longer act as an "unbiased" sponsor in Middle East peace process, a toned down final version of the communique read.

Addressing the 57-member strong conference, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said that Palestinians will no longer accept any American role in the Middle East peace process at all.

While Palestinians remain committed to peace, Washington can no longer be accepted as a "fair negotiator", he said, having provoked Muslim and Christian sentiments over the future of the holy city.

His comments were echoed by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who said that the US' role is now "over" in brokering peace in the region.
Trump has surrendered US leadership in the Middle East peace process, in return for nothing of value and a loss of international regard.
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:05 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Palestine and the OIC announce that they will no longer accept US participation in the peace process with Israel



Trump has surrendered US leadership in the Middle East peace process, in return for nothing of value and a loss of international regard.
True. It may not be much consolation but at least now assTrumpet and the evangelical Repuglicans have been blocked in their efforts to bring on Armageddon. This may even take the wind out of their sails completely on their attempts to burn down the world.
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Old 12-14-2017, 03:09 PM   #65 (permalink)
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True. It may not be much consolation but at least now assTrumpet and the evangelical Repuglicans have been blocked in their efforts to bring on Armageddon. This may even take the wind out of their sails completely on their attempts to burn down the world.
I wish I could be as optimistic as you about that...

As it stands now, the lack of reported official US statements on this development tells me that Tillerson's current opinion is that this meeting never happened. When his office does start issuing statements, expect them to speak like nothing has changed and the US is still "at the table".
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Old 12-14-2017, 03:40 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I wish I could be as optimistic as you about that...

As it stands now, the lack of reported official US statements on this development tells me that Tillerson's current opinion is that this meeting never happened. When his office does start issuing statements, expect them to speak like nothing has changed and the US is still "at the table".
Of course they will claim that. Claiming something doesn't make it true.

Jerusalem was a way (maybe the only way) to force the Apocalypse and now assTrumpet has yanked that rug out from under them because he is an idiot. The fact that they will be scrambling to cover their asses goes without saying.
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:00 AM   #67 (permalink)
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The lights are already illuminated on Bethlehem’s huge Christmas tree in Manger Square.

Nearby, at the narrow entrance to the Church of the Nativity, holiday pilgrims queue daily for their chance to descend into the cramped subterranean shrine said to be the birthplace of Jesus.

One person, however, who will not be entering the church, barring a last-minute diplomatic miracle, is the US vice-president, Mike Pence.

A proposed visit to Bethlehem and the Nativity church – now cancelled – had been intended as the highlight of a tour of the Middle East next week.

That tour has been thrown into disarray by Donald Trump’s decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and the consequent refusal of Palestinian and many Christian leaders to meet Pence.

Part of the reason is that Pence – who stood next to Trump during his announcement – is seen by Palestinians as having been a key influence on Trump regarding the decision, and appears to have made little effort to repair the damage.
Mike Pence's Holy Land visit in disarray after Jerusalem recognition
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Old 12-17-2017, 12:26 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Old 12-17-2017, 03:07 PM   #69 (permalink)
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No wonder my Jewish boyfriend supports Trump :/
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Old 12-18-2017, 08:13 PM   #70 (permalink)
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US forced to stand alone in veto of otherwise-unanimous UN Security Council resolution condemning Trump's recent decision regarding Jerusalem
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:04 PM   #71 (permalink)
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...jerusalem-move
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In recognising Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, Donald Trump seeks to achieve through a declaration what Israel has been trying to do for 50 years through force of arms: to erase Palestinians, as a political and cultural presence, from the life of their own city. The Palestinian people of Jerusalem are already subject to municipal discrimination at every level, and a creeping process of ethnic cleansing.

In addition to the continuing policy of house demolitions, in the last 15 years at least 35 Palestinian public institutions and NGOs in occupied East Jerusalem have been permanently or temporarily closed by the occupying forces.

Cultural institutions have been a particular target. At the same time, Israeli authorities and entrepreneurs have spent millions in clearing Palestinian neighbourhoods to create “heritage” projects that promote a myth of mono-ethnic urban identity, said to stretch back 3,000 years.

We reject Trump’s collusion with such racist manipulation and his disregard for international law. We deplore his readiness to crown the Israeli military conquest of East Jerusalem and his indifference to Palestinian rights
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 12-19-2017, 07:04 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Calling it now: israel will build us the embassy (whether or not we get charged is another question) so we can move in as fast as the paperwork says we can move. Donnie will thank them over protests from the state dept that it is not secure.
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Old 12-19-2017, 08:10 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Donnie will thank them over protests from the state dept that it is not secure.
Given that the current ambassador is Rump's ex-bankruptcy lawyer, an avid settlement supporter who's right of Netanyahoo and a pussy grabber denier, I seriously doubt anything happening in the new building would surprise those monitoring it in the least.
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Old 12-21-2017, 01:17 PM   #74 (permalink)
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US ambassador Haley, on UN vote: "We'll be taking names."

UN: "Make sure you spell them right."

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(CNN)The United Nations voted overwhelmingly to condemn President Donald Trump's decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel despite threats from the US to pull funding from the world body.

Some 128 countries voted for the resolution, while nine voted "no," and 35 nations abstained, including Canada, Mexico and Australia.

The vote came after US Ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley issued a direct threat, saying that the US will think twice about funding the world body if it voted to condemn Trump's decision.

"The United States will remember this day in which it was singled out for attack in this assembly," Haley said. "We will remember it when we are called upon to once again make the world's largest contribution" to the UN and when other member nations ask Washington "to pay even more and to use our influence for their benefit."

Haley said the US will put its embassy in Jerusalem regardless of the vote.

"That is what the American people want us to do and it is the right thing to do," Haley said. "This vote will make a difference in how Americans look at the UN," she said. "And this vote will be remembered."

Haley's remarks followed a threat from Trump himself, who mentioned the UN vote at a Wednesday Cabinet meeting. "We're watching those votes," the President said. "Let them vote against us, we'll save a lot. We don't care."

Few countries seemed cowed, as nation after nation blasted the US at the emergency session of the UN General Assembly, condemning the Jerusalem decision as illegal, destabilizing, and a violation of international law leaving Washington largely isolated.

The US was joined in its "no" vote by Israel and a slew of small nations, including Micronesia, Nauru, Togo and Tonga, Palau, the Marshall Islands, Guatemala and Honduras.

Other abstainers included the Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Croatia and South Sudan.

Haley was even wrong about this vote changing how Americans view the UN; I've always liked them, even if they seem at times ineffectual.
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Old 12-21-2017, 01:49 PM   #75 (permalink)
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I hope Ambassador Haley is in a position to reassure her boss that Nambia voted the right way.

The UK voted for the resolution, btw, as did most other European countries.

I think Trump should mark his displeasure at our vote by announcing he refuses to visit the UK ever again. That'll show us!
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