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Old 12-04-2017, 07:22 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Umm, defend their country?!? So, your idea of defending your country is attacking a country that had not involved itself in the war? How exactly is that a defense? japan attacked Pearl Harbor Dec 7th 1941.. 4 years later we retaliated. But the US started WW2, right?
The US sailors at Pearl Harbor had a fighting chance. The one million plus Japanese civilians had no chance. How about the Iraqi civilians? Why did they have to die? The government of Iraq did not attack the USA.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:23 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Eku disagrees; though I'm not sure which part or why.

But considering that she's from there, I think that's well worth taking into consideration.
I respect Eku's opinions and perspective. Not to assume anything, but it wouldn't surprise me if she disagrees with my perspective on the reasons for dropping the bomb.

That's fine, it's not like SLU hasn't had our A-bomb debates in the past. Personally, I don't think there's anything to be gained by going down that road again, but whatever.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:37 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Maybe Ranma knows something, I am still on PRP.
Third person now?
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:52 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Third person now?
Just trying to say, I have the PRP destination on my security clearance. It came from my last job in the USAF just before I was put out for failure to be promoted


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Old 12-05-2017, 12:50 AM   #55 (permalink)
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The US sailors at Pearl Harbor had a fighting chance.
Wait... what? How exactly did Pearl Harbor have a fighting chance? For all intents and purposes, they never saw the attack coming. The ships that were sunk with sailors on board were certainly not in a wartime posture, let alone a defensible one. Try explaining to a Pearl Harbor survivor how they had a fighting chance!
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Old 12-05-2017, 02:06 AM   #56 (permalink)
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I have never understood the criticism of the US using the atomic bomb to try and force the Japanese to surrender and end the war. The US (with Britain), Russia, Germany AND Japan were all working towards an atomic bomb. Is there any doubt whatsoever that, after the years and years of war, whoever got their first would not use it?

In a perfect world, there would be no need for war and people would not try to create things like an atomic bomb. There would be no need for drones and ICBMS. There would also be a Santa Claus and no Donald Trump. We don't live in such a world, at least not yet. what about Dresdin, Pearl Harbor, The Blitz and of course Nanking? More people were killed in the bombing of Tokyo than in Nagasaki. Good luck justifying any of that.

The idea that somehow the world thought/knew the war was over is insane. On the day the first bomb was dropped, my uncle was a 17 year old boy who had just finished basic training and was preparing to ship out to invade Japan. Their timetable was to be months, not weeks. If the war was "effectively over", no one had told the Japanese or America.

The US got their first and dropped the atomic bomb. If you read Truman's biography, he struggled with the decision and ultimately believed that less people on BOTH sides would be killed if the US dropped the bomb and ended the war. There are good arguments to be made for and against that, and no one is wrong. But be realistic. Had anyone else succeeded first, they would have dropped one as well. It is war. We unleashed the monster first and for the most part have been struggling with it ever sense.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:00 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I have never understood the criticism of the US using the atomic bomb to try and force the Japanese to surrender and end the war.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:01 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Strange. I could have sworn people were still dying the day before the first bomb dropped.
So they did after the first bomb was dropped, and so they did after the second bomb was dropped. It doesn't change the fact that Japan was about to surrender -- but maybe people in the US are taught a different history than over here. After all the US did need a good excuse to try out their new toy and show the world who's the boss, right?
That's exactly the point why NK needs their nukes. If they wouldn't have them, trigger-happy Trump would have nuked Pyongyang off the earth already.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:33 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hardware Requiem View Post
So they did after the first bomb was dropped, and so they did after the second bomb was dropped. It doesn't change the fact that Japan was about to surrender -- but maybe people in the US are taught a different history than over here. After all the US did need a good excuse to try out their new toy and show the world who's the boss, right?
Funny that you should mention being taught a different history, because, guess what, what is taught is biased EVERYWHERE.

(Until one gets to university, one hopes, that there is far less bias and proper debate)
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:08 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Eku disagrees; though I'm not sure which part or why.

But considering that she's from there, I think that's well worth taking into consideration.
I disagreed for a number of reasons.
But mostly because things are not as simple as: the bombs were dropped to stop the war.
They never are, and history is always written by the victors, but in this case there are errors on many sides.

Disclaimer first though, in case I get my guts ripped out again.
I completely understand the atrocities of war on all sides and abhor them pretty much equally.
I disapprove of Imperial Japan's invasion and colonisation of Asia/China and the cruel treatment afforded the native ppls. I also disapprove of the similar colonisation of Africa, Asia, the Americas (North and South) SEA, etc etc by European and British sovereignties and the cruel treatment afforded the native ppls. etc etc .. I am not making excuses for any side. I am just explaining why I disagreed.
Also this is going to be TL;DR. All i ask is if you want to debate it.. read it.

Japan had been negotiating for a Soviet mediated surrender as early as June. Of course this was not the unconditional surrender demanded at the Potsdam Treaty, but the wheels of negotiating surrender were in play before the decision to drop the bombs.

On the other hand, Japan was split, with one side urging surrender and the other a fight to the death.
Death that would probably come relatively soon because Japan was very much scraping the bottom of the barrel, drafting children to undertake 'kamikaze' (i use this term because its more well known)and suicide submarine attacks. The local population in Japan was already starving and at the end of their rope.
In late June the ENTIRE Japanese population; men women and children over a certain age had been effectively drafted to fight to the death. Any invasion would necessitate large scale killing of civilians. Or so the Japanese people believed.

But let us rewind a little to the Yalta Conference in Feb 1945.
The Cliff notes:
Quote:
The Yalta Conference was a meeting of British prime minister Winston Churchill, Soviet premier Joseph Stalin, and President Franklin D. Roosevelt early in February 1945 as World War II was winding down. The leaders agreed to require Germany’s unconditional surrender and to set up in the conquered nation four zones of occupation to be run by their three countries and France. They scheduled another meeting for April in San Francisco to create the United Nations. Stalin also agreed to permit free elections in Eastern Europe and to enter the Asian war against Japan. In turn, he was promised the return of lands lost to Japan in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905. At the time, most of these agreements were kept secret.
However, the Soviets had a treaty with Japan, the Soviet-Japanese Nuetrality Pact. Stalin used this as a cover to lull Japan and allow them to try to use the Soviets as mediatiors to secure surrender.
(Japan however did not want unconditional surrender, believing that the Emperial family would be disolved) Japan fully believed that the pact would last until it expired in April 1946.
The Soviets however had promised Truman that they would join the war against Japan by August 15th.

Then came the Potsdam Conference 17 July to 2 August 1945.
Quote:
Towards the end of the conference, Japan was given an ultimatum to surrender (in the name of the United States, Great Britain and China) or meet "prompt and utter destruction", which did not mention the new bomb
Japan did not respond to the ultimatum. They were still trying to negotiate a NON unconditional surrender via the Soviets in the hope of keeping the Imperial family.

However Stalin came to Potsdam to accomplish two purposes. First, he wanted to mobilize Truman's support to put pressure on the recalcitrant Chinese to conclude a treaty endorsing the Yalta Agreement .
Second, he wanted to join the Allies' joint ultimatum to Japan . Such an ultimatum would justify Soviet entry into the war against Japan in violation of the Neutrality Pact. It will also serve as the declaration of war against Japan.

Stalin revealed to Truman at the second meeting that Japan had made peace overtures to Moscow in the Emperor's name.

Truman was not about to help Stalin with his negotiations with the Chinese and basically he was very suspicious of Soviet expansion into Asia.

On 26th July the Potsdam Proclamation was issued without Stalin's knowledge and without Stalin's signature . Stalin made a desperate attempt to request Truman's invitation to join the Potsdam Proclamation, but Truman refused .

Quote:
This fiasco finally convinced Stalin that the United States was determined to force Japan's surrender unilaterally without Soviet help . If this were allowed to happen, Stalin would be deprived of the fruits promised at Yalta. Stalin ordered Vasilevskii to hasten all the preparations of attack by August 5, and change the date of attack to August 10 . The race between the atomic bomb and Soviet entry into the war was on. Stalin returned to Moscow on August 5, and resumed frantic activities to prepare for the war against Japan. The Americans moved first. They dropped the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima .
Truman was ecstatic, knowing that he had finally managed to drop the bomb before the Soviets joined the war. Stalin, in contrast, was crushed . On August 6, he was in seclusion refusing to see anyone .
Dropping the bomb at Hiroshima however, did not have the desired effect. Japan did not agree to unconditional surrender. They still clung to the hope that surrender could be won through negotiations via the Soviets. Japan was completely unaware of what the Soviets were promised at Yalta and still believed the Neutrality Pact was in place.

Quote:
Togo dispatched an urgent telegram to Sato, urging him to make an appointment with Molotov to obtain Moscow's answer with regard to the Konoe mission. On August 7 Ambassador Sato called the Foreign Commissariat, requesting an appointment with Molotov. This was the first clear reaction of the Japanese government to the Hiroshima bombing .
Stalin realized that he had not lost . He leapt to action. He ordered Vasilevskii to change the date of attack by twenty-four hours to August 9 . He had Molotov tell Sato to see him in his office at 5 PM on August 8. He hastily arranged the meeting with T . V. Soong and the Chinese delegation at 10 PM in the Kremlin .

Soong was as adamant as before, and the negotiations with the Chinese did not yield a treaty with the Chinese. But Stalin was in a hurry. He decided to go ahead to plunge into the war without a treaty with the Chinese, thereby, violating a provision of the Yalta Treaty . He gambled. Once the Soviets entered the war, neither the Americans nor the Chinese would condemn the Soviet government for violating the Yalta Agreement.

At 5 PM on August 8 Molotov handed the Soviet declaration of the war to unsuspecting Sato on the grounds that the Allies had invited the Soviet government to join the Potsdam Proclamation . It was a blatant lie, but as Stalin suspected, no one protested . Within one hour after Sato left Molotov's office, Soviet tanks rolled into Manchuria. Stalin managed to enter the war in the nick of time . Nine hours later,the second atomic bomb was dropped on Nagasaki .
Soviet entry into the war provided the most crucial factor for Japan's decision to surrender.
During the war that lasted from August 9 through September 5, the Soviets occupied all the territories that
were promised by the Yalta Agreement .
https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/200...0-Hasegawa.pdf

During the war, Japan had seen losses a hundred fold more than the initial losses at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Without knowing the ongoing and longterm effects of the two bombs, the threat of Soviet Invasion after such a blatant disregard for the Neutrality Pact pushed Japan to choose to rather negotiate with the US to receive marginally better treatment than they would at the hands of the Soviets.

So here in my opinion, the real reasons:
The dropping of the 2 bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (2 completely different bombs) was done not only in an attempt to stop the war, but also to test the effects of the bombs on a city population and above all to show the Soviets what the US was capable of and to jumpstart the cold war.
Hiroshima and nagasaki were chosen because they had incurred minimal damage so far in the war. Truman wanted the damage to be clearly caused by the atomic blast and not have anyone say that it was previous damage.

Quote:
Truman and his advisors concluded that only bombing a city would make an adequate impression. Any advance warning to evacuate a city would endanger the bomber crews; the Japanese would be forewarned and attempt to shoot them down. The target cities were carefully chosen. First, it had to be a city that had suffered little damage from conventional bombing so it couldn’t be argued that the damage came from anything other than the atomic bomb. Second, it must be a city primarily devoted to military production. This was complicated, however, because in Japan, workers homes were intermingled with factories so that it was impossible to find a target that was exclusively military. Finally, Truman stipulated it should not be a city of traditional cultural significance to Japan, such as Kyoto.
https://www.nps.gov/articles/trumanatomicbomb.htm

And since we have come this far, let's go a little further....

The US did not give crucial information about radiation sickness to the Japanese survivors and medical helpers.
They even lied to US citizens about it
Quote:
Manhattan Project Director General Leslie Groves initially dismissed reports of radiation-related deaths as Japanese propaganda saying “If this is true, the number was very small,” then told the US Senate that death from high-dose radiation exposure is “without undue suffering” and “a very pleasant way to die
For years after the bombs, tens of thousands of people suffered agonising radiation related illnesses. Many died.

In Nagasaki, newborn death rates skyrocketed in the nine months after the bombing: 43% of pregnancies in which the fetus was exposed within a quarter-mile of the hypocenter ended in spontaneous abortion, stillbirth or infant death. Young mothers giving birth in the ruins did not know it yet, but even those infants who survived would face severe physical and mental disabilities.

Meanwhile, Gen. Douglas MacArthur's occupation press code censored Japanese news accounts, personal testimonies, photographs and scientific research on the survivors' conditions. In the United States, virtually all reports about the devastation and radiation-related deaths stopped after a confidential memo to American media requested that all reports about the atomic bombs be preapproved by the War Department, particularly those containing scientific or technical details.
“Nagasaki: Life After Nuclear War” by Susan Southard

Sadly there will soon be no hibakusha left to tell the stories of the true horror of nuclear bombs.
Without the first hand telling, the horrors will fade.
When they do, history will sadly repeat itself.

Who Are The Hibakusha? | Hibakusha Stories



https://www.britannica.com/event/Potsdam-Conference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet...eutrality_Pact
https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/200...0-Hasegawa.pdf
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:22 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Katheryne Helendale View Post
Wait... what? How exactly did Pearl Harbor have a fighting chance? For all intents and purposes, they never saw the attack coming. The ships that were sunk with sailors on board were certainly not in a wartime posture, let alone a defensible one. Try explaining to a Pearl Harbor survivor how they had a fighting chance!
Exactly, I suppose those sailors who got trapped in an upside down ship had a fighting chance too?
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:31 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hardware Requiem View Post
So they did after the first bomb was dropped, and so they did after the second bomb was dropped. It doesn't change the fact that Japan was about to surrender -- but maybe people in the US are taught a different history than over here. After all the US did need a good excuse to try out their new toy and show the world who's the boss, right?
That's exactly the point why NK needs their nukes. If they wouldn't have them, trigger-happy Trump would have nuked Pyongyang off the earth already.
You do realize NK is already flying those nukes over your country, right? Maybe we just have a MUCH lower threshold of what is a provocation because if it were us we would already be at war with them.

In any war the later generations on both sides are taught a different version of what happened, that is true in any war. However if you want to make claims like what you are saying you need to back it up with something. Not 'everyone knew the war was ending' .... if that were true people on both sides would not have been dying and your side prepping for an invasion.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:36 AM   #63 (permalink)
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You do realize NK is already flying those nukes over your country, right? Maybe we just have a MUCH lower threshold of what is a provocation because if it were us we would already be at war with them.

In any war the later generations on both sides are taught a different version of what happened, that is true in any war. However if you want to make claims like what you are saying you need to back it up with something. Not 'everyone knew the war was ending' .... if that were true people on both sides would not have been dying and your side prepping for an invasion.
Japan cannot attack ROK.
MOFA: Japan-U.S. Security Treaty
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Old 12-05-2017, 07:51 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Wait... what? How exactly did Pearl Harbor have a fighting chance?
It's also worth remembering that the Japanese attack on Pearl harbour took place *before* Japan declared war on the USA.
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Old 12-05-2017, 08:38 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Japan cannot attack ROK.
MOFA: Japan-U.S. Security Treaty
Thanks, I was not sure this morning of the details, hence the 'if it were us'. No matter what a treaty said though you can bet the popular opinion among americans would be to strike back because people would see it as a provocation.
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Old 12-05-2017, 08:44 AM   #66 (permalink)
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With my subscription to The Nation comes access to their archives. Here is the first page of an article describing a view of the Japanese situation a few weeks before the bombs were dropped.

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Old 12-05-2017, 08:50 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Sorry, pre-brekky so what was the point of all that small text? If it was that the war would end eventually, that is known for any war, it just is not known when or what form it will take (which was mentioned in the article).
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:41 AM   #68 (permalink)
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It's also worth remembering that the Japanese attack on Pearl harbour took place *before* Japan declared war on the USA.
As for declaring war, like when was the last time the USA declared war? The USA killed millions of Japanese civilians in retaliation. This pattern has been repeated in Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam. So much of our so called vaulted history is propaganda.

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Old 12-05-2017, 09:48 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Exactly, I suppose those sailors who got trapped in an upside down ship had a fighting chance too?
The ship was at General Quarters and fighting before it capsized. The USS Oklahoma was obsolete before the war.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:41 AM   #70 (permalink)
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The ship was at General Quarters and fighting before it capsized. The USS Oklahoma was obsolete before the war.
You are seriously trying to say a docked ship is at the same state of readiness as one on the open water? Yes, I am guessing a captain whose ship was being fired on in either state would call general quarters, that does not mean they were not a sitting duck.
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:06 PM   #71 (permalink)
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The ship was at General Quarters and fighting before it capsized. The USS Oklahoma was obsolete before the war.
Where did you get the idea that it was obsolete? The Records of Naval Districts and Shore Establishments shows a complete retro-fit in 1929 for the Oklahoma with only two returns for armor and guns in the 1940s. That's hardly obsolete as far as Naval vessels go. My last carrier served for 50 years before it was retired to serve as a training vessel and won't be fully decommissioned until 2020. As to GQ, I'm not sure what you are implying here but most ships, with the proper training, can go from non-status to GQ in 8 minutes.
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:17 PM   #72 (permalink)
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As to GQ, I'm not sure what you are implying here but most ships, with the proper training, can go from non-status to GQ in 8 minutes.
That threw me to. Correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought GQ is something you go to quickly rather than a state you sit at for a long time with nothing happening. Humans can not be on high alert for too long before they just assume it is the new normal and start not being alert, which is part of why the terrorism color code definitions (and always staying near the top) never made sense.
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:39 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by eku Zhong View Post
Japan had been negotiating for a Soviet mediated surrender as early as June. Of course this was not the unconditional surrender demanded at the Potsdam Treaty, but the wheels of negotiating surrender were in play before the decision to drop the bombs.
It should also be mentioned at this point that the Soviets were playing both sides against each other for their own gain. And even after they'd decided to go to war against Japan, they simply engaged in delay and obfuscation rather than flatly turning the Japanese envoy down. Their goals were mostly territorial (Manchuria, Sakhalin, the northern Kurils, Inner Mongolia) but they were also looking ahead to the post-war world and their position then. The end result was that, until they delivered their declaration of war against Japan, the Tokyo government was under the impression that they might be able to secure an end to the war through Moscow while also keeping some remnant of their pre-war empire. It was a false hope.

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In late June the ENTIRE Japanese population; men women and children over a certain age had been effectively drafted to fight to the death. Any invasion would necessitate large scale killing of civilians. Or so the Japanese people believed.
I've seen estimates of as many as 5 million up to 20 million Japanese civilian & military casualties in the event of a ground invasion. Similarly, many of the books I've digested on the topic understated Allied casualty estimates. Some estimates put the cost as high as 2 million Allied troops. It would have been incredibly bloody and catastrophic, there's no doubt.

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Then came the Potsdam Conference 17 July to 2 August 1945. Japan did not respond to the ultimatum. They were still trying to negotiate a NON unconditional surrender via the Soviets in the hope of keeping the Imperial family.
To my thinking, the gravest error of the war was for FDR to add the phrase "unconditional surrender" to the Allied demands. It allowed no compromise or saving of face for the defeated enemy, and I think that without that phrase the war might have been ended by late 1944. I'm speculating, though.

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So here in my opinion, the real reasons:
The dropping of the 2 bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (2 completely different bombs) was done not only in an attempt to stop the war, but also to test the effects of the bombs on a city population and above all to show the Soviets what the US was capable of and to jumpstart the cold war.
There's no doubt that the US military officers (particularly Gen. Groves) in charge of the atomic attacks were interested in testing the bombs (thus the choice of undamaged targets), but for Truman and the civilians in his administration the prime goal was still to end the war.

Bear in mind that by late 1945, the American public was war weary. We'd had most of our ground forces in Europe and Africa bleeding and dying for years already, and the public had a hard time understanding why Japan didn't surrender soon after Berlin. Truman had a more callous motive, too, for hurrying up the end of the war: re-election. If he let the Pacific War drag on into '46 and beyond, his party would be slaughtered at the polls in '48 even if we had eventually won.

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The US did not give crucial information about radiation sickness to the Japanese survivors and medical helpers.
They even lied to US citizens about it
For years after the bombs, tens of thousands of people suffered agonising radiation related illnesses. Many died.
We even experimented on our own soldiers! All this, to me, speaks loudly about the prevailing ignorance regarding radiation. We didn't inform anyone because we weren't really sure what the effects would be, long or short term. I won't argue with the idea that there was a huge element of racial hatred involved (see also our depiction of the Japanese people in war-time propaganda, and Truman's reference to them as "apes".) But it's also true that you cannot warn someone about something when you're not sure what you're warning about.

Who knew about radiation sickness, and when? | Restricted Data

That article is interesting on several levels, but here's the point:

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There were certainly physicists at Los Alamos who understood that the first atomic bombs would produce significant amounts of radiation, and were likely to cause both radiation sickness and nuclear fallout effects.

But J. Robert Oppenheimer never seemed to be very interested in that. Why not? It remains something of a mystery — how do you find out why someone wasn't interested in something? Anyway, for whatever reason, he never really paid too much attention to the reports about radiation effects, and spoke almost exclusively of the bomb in terms of heat and blast effects.

Despite much lore to the contrary, the targeting height of the bomb was not chosen in order to minimize radiation effects. It was chosen to maximize blast and thermal effects. The argument that its height was chosen to minimize radiation effects is an after-the-fact argument, though it is not an entirely inaccurate side-effect.
...
If Groves didn't know/care, then the Targeting Committee and Interim Committee, Secretary of War Henry Stimson's turf, didn't know at all. If Stimson didn't know, Truman didn't know. Question answered, in a sense: some people knew, but they were very low on the hierarchy, and the Manhattan Project was highly hierarchical. The reasons it didn't percolate up the chain aren't because anyone was deliberately holding it down — it's because knowing something and caring about it (that is, thinking it is important) are linked.
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Would it have mattered? Malloy thinks it might very well have mattered for Truman — he was markedly averse to the idea of poison warfare. Personally I doubt it would have made a difference; you don't call off a massacre because you think it might kill a few more people than you originally intended, and the scientists would have had no way to give a plausible number for the number affected. Later estimates put the number of acute dead from radiation exposure at about 15%-20% of the total casualties from the bombings — a not insignificant number (many thousands of people), but probably not enough to change the direction of the bomb program, and probably a number that would have been dismissed as too high if it had been presented as an estimate before actual use.
Quote:
To his credit, even though he dismissed the Japanese doctors' claims, Groves also sent his own teams to Japan as soon as he could to evaluate the results themselves. They found that indeed, radiation had been a significant factor in mortality at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
General Groves was in charge of the Manhattan Project, and once called radiation "'A very pleasant way to die". That's how much we understood about nuclear radiation.

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Meanwhile, Gen. Douglas MacArthur's occupation press code censored Japanese news accounts, personal testimonies, photographs and scientific research on the survivors' conditions.
I won't defend Gen. MacArthur for anything he ever did, but this edict really isn't that out of line with most occupation law. "Free press" in an occupied nation is an open invitation to uprisings and domestic violence so long as they are occupied by foreign troops. It's as much a matter of keeping the peace as it is suppressing the truth.

Note, too, that we forced the Japanese to disarm in order to prevent the remilitarization of the Imperial Japanese armed forces (we did the same in Germany). Japan was seen by Americans as an expansionist and authoritarian state much like Nazi Germany. Much of MacArthur's work was aimed at democratizing Japan, reforming its institutions and introducing land reform (designed to benefit the majority tenant farmers and reduce the power of rich landowners). By September of 1951, the occupation was essentially ended and Japan was free to seek its own destiny as long as it did not engage in aggressive war (something that has been enshrined in the Japanese post-war constitution). Today Japan is one of the major economic powers on earth.

The troubling part of this debate, to me, has always been that we cannot really understand the mindset and thinking of the major players of that time. I can assert that American leaders were rabidly anti-Japanese, but so was most of America. Shipping home the bodies of their sons who died fighting Japan did nothing to lighten that animosity. So as ghastly and unconscionable as some actions in 1945 might be to us today, Truman et al was not operating under 21st century standards of morality. For that matter, neither was Togo or Hirohito. I've always considered the study of history to be not "how should we do it differently today?" but rather "what can we learn now so as not to duplicate the same mistakes".

Off topic, but this is exactly one of the reasons I find Trump to be so dangerous. He doesn't know any history. He doesn't understand the course of past events or the cause-effect of popular movements beyond what he may have read in a magazine. This is the sort of 19th century ignorance that could lead us back into a war but with far heavier consequences than our species has ever seen in the past.

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Old 12-05-2017, 12:41 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ranma Tardis View Post
The ship was at General Quarters and fighting before it capsized. The USS Oklahoma was obsolete before the war.
It didn't sound GQ until the attacking bombers had already started their runs. The real scandal would be if the skipper had NOT gone to GQ by then.

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Old 12-05-2017, 12:52 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kara Spengler View Post
That threw me to. Correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought GQ is something you go to quickly rather than a state you sit at for a long time with nothing happening. Humans can not be on high alert for too long before they just assume it is the new normal and start not being alert, which is part of why the terrorism color code definitions (and always staying near the top) never made sense.
You are absolutely correct. There are also two levels here, GQ and Battle Stations which I imagine, as soon as the uncoded "under attack" had been broadcast from the air station, which was the beginning of the attack, pretty much every ship who could went immediately to Battle Stations. The thing is, it took something like fifteen minutes from commencement to sinking for the Oklahoma. They were caught off guard. Heck, most of the crew was at liberty.
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