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Old 11-20-2017, 07:04 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Exactly, it sounds like everything that now happens is internal to the UK. Why would the EU care about the internal affairs of another country that as of the withdrawal date will not even be an EU state?
Well, a good exit deal is really essential for both sides, economically and socially. But all the British government is doing so far is frustrating the negotiations and coursing towards a Brexit with no deal at all.

And for what? It seems all is ONLY about who will be warming his/her ass by the fireplace at 10 Downing Street the next couple of years.
It is all so frustrating.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:39 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid II View Post
Well, a good exit deal is really essential for both sides, economically and socially. But all the British government is doing so far is frustrating the negotiations and coursing towards a Brexit with no deal at all.

And for what? It seems all is ONLY about who will be warming his/her ass by the fireplace at 10 Downing Street the next couple of years.
It is all so frustrating.
Welcome to our world. We have a "president" who announces radical policy shifts via twitter then months later releases the bare minimum of details in formal documents.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:18 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Not knowing the intricacies it does not make a lot of sense that the UK needs to do anything. Party A has told party B it is dissolving the contract on a certain date. Surely everything that happens after that date is internal for party A and nothing more needs be done for the date to appear on the calendar of both of them?
There's all manner of things that need agreeing. The ones most in the news at the moment are the UK's continuing financial obligations to the EU and the position of both EU nationals currently living and working in the UK and UK nationals currently living and working in other EU countries.

There's also 40 years' worth of commercial and regulatory relationships to sort out in an attempt to cause as little disruption as possible to both EU and UK businesses and individuals.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:50 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Surely Article 50 means something? It seems like it should be like any other contract. If one party wants to cancel or postpone it (the UK), the other party (the EU) would have to agree. Is that not the case?
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:17 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Surely Article 50 means something? It seems like it should be like any other contract. If one party wants to cancel or postpone it (the UK), the other party (the EU) would have to agree. Is that not the case?
Apparently not, or not according to the various experts in EU law (including the guy who wrote that particular treaty article) who have expressed an opinion. Furthermore, the EU, through their negotiators, have made it pretty clear that they wouldn't raise any objections if that were to happen.

ETA: I see that Lord Callanan, a Brexit minister in the House of Lords, has today had to apologise to their lordships for wrongly suggesting that the notification can't be revoked.

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Old 11-20-2017, 11:27 AM   #31 (permalink)
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ETA: I see that Lord Callanan, a Brexit minister in the House of Lords, has today had to apologise to their lordships for wrongly suggesting that the notification can't be revoked.
Man, if only US senators had to stick to statements of fact and apologize when they lied. They'd never be able to do anything but apologize.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:59 PM   #32 (permalink)
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So where are we today with brexit.

Well, it's been confirmed that UK banks will loose passporting rights post brexit.

it's also confirmed that the European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency are leaving the UK to new centres in the EU.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:47 PM   #33 (permalink)
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After googling a bit about this "losing passport rights" I found this article from the Independent : British banks 'will lose access to the EU' after Brexit.

It seems that EU chief negotiator Barnier was pretty clear about the EU position when it comes to the single market:

Quote:
Mr Barnier told the audience at the Centre for European Reform: “Those who claim that the UK should pick parts of the single market must stop this contradiction. The single market is a package, with four indivisible freedoms, common rules, institutions, and enforcement structures.

“The UK knows these rules very well, like the back of its hand. It has contributed to defining them over the last 44 years with a certain degree of influence. We took note of the UK decision to end free movement of people, and this means clearly that the UK will lose the benefits of the single market.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:48 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Popcorn?
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:53 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sid II View Post
After googling a bit about this "losing passport rights" I found this article from the Independent : British banks 'will lose access to the EU' after Brexit.

It seems that EU chief negotiator Barnier was pretty clear about the EU position when it comes to the single market:
Yes and yet still our politicians keep trying to promise little chunks of the EU, like David Davis suggesting that perhaps freedom of movement didn't have to end for british bankers. But then again, Davis, our chief negotiator didn't know that he couldn't do trade deals with individual EU countries and seems to think that Czechoslovakia is still a thing.
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Old 11-21-2017, 05:29 AM   #36 (permalink)
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He sounds like a typical politician. Unwilling to tell people realities because then their views might change.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:03 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Here we see but one example of why the Conservatives still root for Brexit - the ability to mash up all manner of repellent legislation into one "oh, but we must pass this" bill.

MPs vote 'that animals cannot feel pain or emotions' into the Brexit bill | The Independent

Quote:
MPs have voted to reject the inclusion of animal sentience – the admission that animals feel emotion and pain – into the EU Withdrawal Bill.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:56 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I am shocked that the British people aren't taking to the streets demanding another Brexit vote at this stage. An entire country is headed full throttle towards economic suicide, and it is so damn easy to put on the brakes -- just have another election!

Last vote the pro Brexit side made false promise after false promise. Now the reality sets in: If Brexit happens, between pound devaluation and tariffs there will be runaway inflation, high unemployment as major British corporations sell or move to Europe, benefits slashed, travel restrictions, likely higher taxes, and multiple major industries destroyed.

A victory in favor of Remain is all but guaranteed, but if Brexit wins again, then the UK deserves what happens to them.

If Remain does win there would be the question of whether Article 50 could be reversed. If I were the EU, I would let UK rescind it on the condition that the UK will never be allowed to use it again. I'm pretty sure the rest of the EU will have learned their lesson and there won't be any more Article 50 petitions again.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:12 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Porsupah Ree View Post
Here we see but one example of why the Conservatives still root for Brexit - the ability to mash up all manner of repellent legislation into one "oh, but we must pass this" bill.

MPs vote 'that animals cannot feel pain or emotions' into the Brexit bill | The Independent
This is a dreadful headline, even by the Indy's standards. As the first sentence in the actual news story makes clear, MPs did nothing of the sort. Rather,
Quote:
MPs have voted to reject the inclusion of animal sentience the admission that animals feel emotion and pain into the EU Withdrawal Bill.
on the grounds, apparently, that is is already covered by the Animal Welfare Act 2006.

Whether or not that's the case -- I see from the news story that various animal welfare groups say that the existing protections are inadequate, particularly since the 2006 Act covers livestock and domestic animals, not wild ones -- I would certainly say that the matter is better dealt with by specific items of animal welfare legislation than by a general statement in a Bill that has nothing to do with the subject. How would such vague clause tell householders what they can and can't do when dealing with an infestation of rats?

Be that as it may, it's certainly the case that declining to vote for a clause that contains a positive affirmation is by no means the same thing as voting for a clause that contains its negation. The law on the subject is the same as it's been for the last 10 years, and certainly hasn't changed one way or the other since the 2009 Lisbon Treaty, which apparently adopted the principle of animal sentience (and, I see, also seems to cover only farmed animals).

I am not suggesting Caroline Lucas' amendment doesn't embody a good idea, though I would want to understand the legislative consequences. But I certainly don't think that the European Union (Wittdrawal) Bill is the right place for it.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:22 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I'm pretty sure that this is all about foxhunting and similar blood sports.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:50 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I'm pretty sure that this is all about foxhunting and similar blood sports.
Foxhunting (indeed, hunting any wild mammals with dogs) is already illegal in the UK and has been since 2004.

ETA: If MPs want to tighten up the Hunting Act 2004, to cover some forms of hunting that are currently exempt, or to extend it to angling or shooting game, then that's best done by specific legislation, not by adding vague clauses to a bill that has nothing to do with the subject.

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Old 11-21-2017, 03:56 PM   #42 (permalink)
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No human rights for brits after brexit.

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Old 11-21-2017, 05:43 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Does anyone else pronounce "Brexit" like "Breaks it" in their minds?

As in breaks the EU, the UK economy, and likely other things?
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Old 11-21-2017, 06:15 PM   #44 (permalink)
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No human rights for brits after brexit.
Not wholly accurate, since the Human Rights Act, which adopts the European Convention on Human Rights, is not affected by this.

Furthermore, when it comes to those aspects of the Charter of Fundamental Rights that don't simply repeat the ECHR, the devil is going to be in the detail (and partly in the Lords amendments, too). For example, the Charter of Fundamental Rights adopts all the rights found in the case law of the Court of Justice of the EU, which as far as I can see are all part of British law anyway (at least the cases so far decided).

What happens to cases decided after Brexit is yet to be negotiated, but it's in practice going to be very difficult to do much other than adopt most of them, too. For example, in practice we're going to have to comply with EU data protection law, whether we want to or not, since the alternative would break so much.

So much of this is really about form rather than substance, and keeping Conservative back-benchers on side.
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:07 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:22 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Foxhunting (indeed, hunting any wild mammals with dogs) is already illegal in the UK and has been since 2004.
I'm sure the Tories have plans for bringing it back. But it would be easier if they didn't have legislation that says foxes have feelings to deal with.
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:40 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Not wholly accurate, since the Human Rights Act, which adopts the European Convention on Human Rights, is not affected by this.

Furthermore, when it comes to those aspects of the Charter of Fundamental Rights that don't simply repeat the ECHR, the devil is going to be in the detail (and partly in the Lords amendments, too). For example, the Charter of Fundamental Rights adopts all the rights found in the case law of the Court of Justice of the EU, which as far as I can see are all part of British law anyway (at least the cases so far decided).

What happens to cases decided after Brexit is yet to be negotiated, but it's in practice going to be very difficult to do much other than adopt most of them, too. For example, in practice we're going to have to comply with EU data protection law, whether we want to or not, since the alternative would break so much.

So much of this is really about form rather than substance, and keeping Conservative back-benchers on side.
May has fought against human rights her whole time in government, way before she became PM.
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:42 AM   #48 (permalink)
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May has fought against human rights her whole time in government, way before she became PM.
Yes, but despite the fact that repealing the Human Rights Act and replacing it with something called a "British Bill of Rights" has been Conservative policy for the last 10 years, the HRA is still in force, and I think the current policy is not to do anything until they're finished with Brexit and then simply to review matters after that's finished.

The fact Theresa May wants something to happen doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen.
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:56 AM   #49 (permalink)
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I'm sure the Tories have plans for bringing it back. But it would be easier if they didn't have legislation that says foxes have feelings to deal with.
In the recent election, they were promising a free vote (i.e. not whipped on party lines) on the issue.

If a future parliament did decide to bring back foxhunting, I don't see why Caroline Lucas' clause would cause them any problems. It would involve repealing or amending the Hunting Act anyway, and adding to the primary legislation a single clause dealing with this under "consequential repeals and amendments" wouldn't be any big deal.
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:52 PM   #50 (permalink)
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