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Old 11-20-2017, 01:00 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Does that sound like someone is reaching? He will probably call for an investigation again but it is pretty common for a photographer to ask people to bunch up. I doubt he was trying to sexually assault someone in a public place.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:18 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Fuck this shit all to hell.

I'm pissed off at Franken, like I'm pissed off at any male whose sense of entitlement led him to stick his tongue where it didn't belong, or grab a pussy he had no business being near, or masturbate in front of anyone who wasn't into that, or menace a girl or teenager who deserved to be free of him. Fuck them all. They all deserve to be held accountable for what they did. All of them. I don't care what party they belong to.

What the fuck, Al? You talked such a good game. And you did a lot of good things. Why was it so hard to walk the walk? I'm not saying he should stay or go at this point. Yeah, I get that you apologized. Good for you. That's - literally - the least you could do. You're not a hero for apologizing after forcing yourself on someone.

And fellow Dems downtalking this - what the hell? Integrity means holding everyone to the same standard, not letting your friends off easy. That kind of behavior is what I expect from the other guys. I don't want to become what I hate. I don't want to become so enamored of winning that I give up what I believe in. If we can't win on our ideals, maybe we have no business winning. But I believe what we stand for IS winnable. So let the people who fall short fall to the wayside if they must. Otherwise, we become just like them - willing to put up Trumps and Arpaios and Moores just to win. And I don't want that.

Yeah, I get it may have been a set up, a play at a political opportune moment. But guess who gave them the ammunition? Franken did it himself. It's a self-inflicted wound, the stupidest kind of injury of all. The kind that never had to happen.
Wonderful. Now I am agreeing with Mr. Bertrand. Time to buy stocks in survival gear for the end times. I have been waiting to sort out my feelings on this assuming more things would pop up, and now it looks like that may be starting to happen. We should hold all of our elected officials to the highest possible standards, and that should be the case regardless of party. I do not expect someone who holds public office to be perfect, but not violating other people should be a lower bound for the level of trust expected.

In terms of Leeann Tweeden, I did not have much of a reaction to the picture. I assumed they were making a commentary about kevlar vests. If you have ever had to wear one, they are bulky, hot, uncomfortable, and definitely not attractive in any way. (It figures that the Commander in Chief would focus on that and not the bigger problem.) The direct interactions that she described, on the other hand, are quite awful, and there should be consequences to treating another person like that. Whether or not she accepted his apology have nothing to do with those consequences, and that is only between the two of them. Accepting an apology simply means one decided to be a better person and doe not absolve the perpetrator.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:19 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:21 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Does that sound like someone is reaching? He will probably call for an investigation again but it is pretty common for a photographer to ask people to bunch up. I doubt he was trying to sexually assault someone in a public place.
Actually, I think it might be a case of someone NOT reaching, but just trying to take a photo. I had a feeling more would come against Frankin, and if this is as worse as it gets I would say he can survive this if he just remains straightforward and honest.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:21 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Whether or not she accepted his apology have nothing to do with those consequences, and that is only between the two of them. Accepting an apology simply means one decided to be a better person and doe not absolve the perpetrator.
Further to this, an essential part of a real apology is endeavoring to not do it again.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:43 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Does that sound like someone is reaching?
Not in the least. Men grabbing women's butts during photographs on the contrary seems to be a thing:

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At one point, McFarland brought up a photo from the meet-and-greet that shows Swift, Mueller, and Mueller's then-girlfriend Shannon Melcher. Each side of the trial has attempted to use the photo to bolster their argument, but Swift rejected McFarland's claim that the photo showed nothing inappropriate.

"Gabe, this is a photo of him with his hand up my skirt -- with his hand on my ass," she said. "You can ask me a million questions -- I'm never going to say anything different. I never have said anything different."

In addition, Swift repeatedly peppered her responses with tough comeback lines.

Looking at the photo, McFarland asked Swift why the front of her skirt did not appear to be lifted.

"Because my ass is located in the back of my body," Swift said.

McFarland also noted that Swift was closer to Melcher than Mueller in the photo.

"Yes, she did not have her hand on my ass," Swift replied.
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After the luncheon, it was time to take group photos. Barbara Bush and I stood and chatted for a few minutes while the photographer readied his camera. President George H.W. Bush, whom I had not yet met, sat in his wheelchair in the center of the room, while others were arranged around him for photos in various groupings. When it came time for my husband and me to be photographed with him, President Bush beckoned me close.

“Hello,” I said. “It’s truly an honor to meet you.”

He cocked his head at me for a moment, then said, “You’re beautiful.”
“Thank you,” I said.

“You’re a writer.”

“Yes."

“You wanna know my favorite book?” he whispered. I had to lean close to hear him.

“Yes, what is it?”

By now the photographer was readying the shot. My husband stood on one side of the wheelchair, and I stood on the other. President Bush put his arm around me, low on my back. His comic timing was impeccable. “David Cop-a-feel,” he said, and squeezed my butt, hard, just as the photographer snapped the photo. Instinctively, I swiped his hand away.

It’s right there in the official photograph.
It seems to me that pervs often consider that moment when photographers are telling them and a female target to get "closer" is the perfect time to grab dat ass. I mean it's right there, an inch away from their hand after all.

My theory:

1: If they're not going to immediately play it off as a "joke", the photography situation gives them an excuse to play it off as an "accident";

2: The fact that the victim is not looking directly at them and that there are other people also bunching together for the photograph leads the perv to believe he could credibly assert it "wasn't me";

3: If none of those work, the perv anticipates being able to defend himself publicly with "who would sexually assault someone in a public place?".

I should think that any person, as in Taylor Swift's case, is perfectly well able to tell the difference between someone accidentally brushing up against their butt while bunching together for a photograph, and somebody deliberately clutching it.

tl;dr: Al Fraken needs to go, end of story.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:01 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Not in the least. Men grabbing women's butts during photographs on the contrary seems to be a thing:





It seems to me that pervs often consider that moment when photographers are telling them and a female target to get "closer" is the perfect time to grab dat ass. I mean it's right there, an inch away from their hand after all.

My theory:

1: If they're not going to immediately play it off as a "joke", the photography situation gives them an excuse to play it off as an "accident";

2: The fact that the victim is not looking directly at them and that there are other people also bunching together for the photograph leads the perv to believe he could credibly assert it "wasn't me";

3: If none of those work, the perv anticipates being able to defend himself publicly with "who would sexually assault someone in a public place?".

I should think that any person, as in Taylor Swift's case, is perfectly well able to tell the difference between someone accidentally brushing up against their butt while bunching together for a photograph, and somebody deliberately clutching it.

tl;dr: Al Fraken needs to go, end of story.
I was totally with you there until the end Dakota, sorry.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:19 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I was once accosted by an angry boyfriend while I was in costume, because he thought I was feeling up his girlfriend. It's very easy to accidentally grab someone. A case in point: I was in a dragon costume with my head covered, and could barely see. My handler told me someone wanted a photo, and backed me against the hotel wall.

Someone bumped into me pretty hard and put arms around me. I was knocked off balance, we both stumbled, and I flung my arms out, grabbing for something to steady myself so I wouldn't fall on my ass.

Apparently I grabbed the breast of a woman, who had flung herself into a person who couldn't see a blasted thing. Next thing I knew, my thumb was being twisted around. Fearing my thumb was gonna break, I kneed the person in the crotch, and in the same motion, tore off my costume head and shouted, "THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING??? OW FUCK COCKSUCKER FUCK!!"

The dude let go of my hand, and grasping his crotch, shouted, "YOU WERE GROPING MY GIRL!!"

"No, she slammed into me and I was knocked the fuck off balance, you taint stain. I grabbed whatever was nearby just so I didn't fall on my ass. Fuck you."

The girl was giggling through this whole ordeal.

My handler, meanwhile, had called convention security, and had the guy and his girlfriend escorted out of the hotel. I decided to get the hell out of that convention for a while, because I was too pissed off to function.

Not saying Franken was knocked off balance the way I was. In point of fact, he is an ex comic and probably being kind of a letch, who thought he could grab ass during a photo. But it can be possible for people to be a little too enthusiastic when they're having their pictures taken with a celebrity or a person in costume.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:19 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I was totally with you there until the end Dakota, sorry.
I was still behind Franken for political reasons until we see a 2nd accusation. Put up or not, this is bad. Al should take the high ground - apologize and step down. It's what we're asking of GOP people accused of harassment. It's not political, it should be a uniform standard.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:23 PM   #60 (permalink)
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GOP people won't step down, though. Trump and Moore are the worst of the lot and they'll continue to throw stones, no matter who might take the high road and do the right thing.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:30 PM   #61 (permalink)
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GOP people won't step down, though.
Screw them. We (the Left) shouldn't gauge our morality by what the GOP does. We'll end up in the gutter just like them.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:31 PM   #62 (permalink)
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GOP people won't step down, though. Trump and Moore are the worst of the lot and they'll continue to throw stones, no matter who might take the high road and do the right thing.
I don't see why that should make a difference. The fact some people don't want to do the right thing doesn't change that it's the right thing.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:38 PM   #63 (permalink)
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The trouble is, enough people support the fucking GOP that it is an uphill battle to oust those fuckers from office. Particularly the orange cockstump in the White House.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:26 PM   #64 (permalink)
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The trouble is, enough people support the fucking GOP that it is an uphill battle to oust those fuckers from office. Particularly the orange cockstump in the White House.
Correction.

Enough people support banning abortion banning gay people, banning brown people and requiring guns for all that the GOP will be propped up for a good long while.
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Old 11-20-2017, 04:52 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Second woman accuses Sen. Franken of sexual misconduct: report
I've done that while mugging for a photo. Probably a few times. Not that there was anything at all sexual meant by it.

So, please pardon me if I utterly fail to get my knickers twisted over this particular accusation.
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Old 11-20-2017, 04:55 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I've done that while mugging for a photo. Probably a few times. Not that there was anything at all sexual meant by it.

So, please pardon me if I utterly fail to get my knickers twisted over this particular accusation.
You've intentionally grabbed a handful of ass without question or warning?
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:40 PM   #67 (permalink)
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If we remove from Congress every man who has grabbed a woman's ass, the place will empty out. This isn't a defense of gropers, it's just the reality. There are a helluva lot of misbehaving men in this country and the higher you go up the ladder of success, the more guys you'll find who trample over the boundaries of women's bodies.

How far can we feasibly take the repercussions of men behaving badly?

Top of the list should be men who rape women or coerce sexual advances through an abuse of power. Rumors are that at least a few Congressmen fall into that category and they need to be removed. Period.

Next comes creating a hostile working environment within Congress, both for staff and any women elected to office. Men who sexually harass and create fear of repercussion so the women don't complain, that's a big priority too. That kind of sexual harassment will get you fired from a corporation and it should get you kicked out of Congress.

There is a sliding scale of sexual assault downward to boorish and rude behavior. Where are we going to draw the line for what is criminal-level behavior, what is unacceptable, and what is deplorable but not sufficient cause for being booted out of the Capitol?

Hell if I know, at this point. But if we don't start electing a LOT more women really fast, there's just not going to be a way to proceed with a functioning government body.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:42 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Hell if I know, at this point. But if we don't start electing a LOT more women really fast, there's just not going to be a way to proceed with a functioning government body.
/me looks at what we have now ...

/me looks back at Beebo ...

/me shrugs
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:31 PM   #69 (permalink)
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You've intentionally grabbed a handful of ass without question or warning?
I've had my own ass grabbed without question or warning, by people who clearly meant nothing by it, that ... among people like that, yes, I have. (When in Rome....)

Are you claiming to have -never- grabbed anyone's ass ever without question or warning?
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:42 PM   #70 (permalink)
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If you grab someone's anything without warning and without knowledge that they'd be ok with it or consent (I'd be ok with being grabbed by someone I was dating, for example, and wouldn't feel the need to keep saying yes it's ok), that's pretty gross.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:59 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Where are we going to draw the line for what is criminal-level behavior, what is unacceptable, and what is deplorable but not sufficient cause for being booted out of the Capitol?

“I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and wouldn’t lose any voters, ok? It’s, like, incredible.” — Donald Trump
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:00 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Are you claiming to have -never- grabbed anyone's ass ever without question or warning?
Well....yeah?
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:06 PM   #73 (permalink)
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There is a sliding scale of sexual assault downward to boorish and rude behavior. Where are we going to draw the line for what is criminal-level behavior, what is unacceptable, and what is deplorable but not sufficient cause for being booted out of the Capitol?
I can't say I know either; but for the latter, something can't be at once "not acceptable" AND not deserving of a negative consequence. If it's not sufficient cause for being kicked out, then what meaningful consequence should it draw instead?

I'm not like spotting you for an answer to that right now Beebo; I'm just saying, it's a question that has to be answered at the same time as yours.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:22 PM   #74 (permalink)
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I can't say I know either; but for the latter, something can't be at once "not acceptable" AND not deserving of a negative consequence. If it's not sufficient cause for being kicked out, then what meaningful consequence should it draw instead?
Being fired isn't the only possible negative consequence in employment. If the company policy is that you're at your desk by 8am every morning, do you fire someone for showing up at 8:01am? At 8:05am? Do they get a free pass once, twice, three times, then they're fired?

Every place I've worked, even the most draconian, has a sliding scale of punishment for "unacceptable" behavior, which can run the gamut from arriving late to departing from production procedure. Cursing on the job is "unacceptable" but you aren't going to be fired for it. You might be reprimanded, lose a bonus, be put on probation, receive letters of disapproval in your employment file, even get your pay docked, before you're fired.

So again, where do we draw the line? And who draws it?

Nothing Al Franken has done compares with the offenses Donald Trump has committed. Or Roy Moore for that matter. Why should Franken be kicked out of Congress or resign, while Trump suffers no consequences. What if Congress caves and accept Moore, but not Franken? How is that even remotely a good outcome for anyone?
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:03 PM   #75 (permalink)
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If you grab someone's anything without warning and without knowledge that they'd be ok with it or consent (I'd be ok with being grabbed by someone I was dating, for example, and wouldn't feel the need to keep saying yes it's ok), that's pretty gross.
I won't argue with that. People are gross in general. If it weren't for social customs and the expected expressions of familiarity, I probably wouldn't touch people at all.

But what I was talking about specifically above was mugging for a camera with someone and intentionally or unintentionally pulling them close by the ass. I've been in enough photos with enough people in a casual setting to presume that I've done it perhaps a few times.
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