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Old 11-10-2017, 11:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Now it is George Takai's Turn - man alleges sexual attack in 1981

George Takei Accused Of Groping Former Male Model In 1981

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Brunton said he was invited back to the “Star Trek” actor’s home for a drink, and that’s when Brunton says the assault happen. After Brunton’s second drink at the condo, he said, he began to feel disoriented and dizzy, then passed out.

“The next thing I remember I was coming to and he had my pants down around my ankles and he was groping my crotch and trying to get my underwear off and feeling me up at the same time, trying to get his hands down my underwear,” Brunton told The Hollywood Reporter. “I came to and said, ‘What are you doing?!’ I said, ‘I don’t want to do this.’ He goes, ‘You need to relax. I am just trying to make you comfortable. Get comfortable.’”
Oh my. Shades of Cosby here. Let the crucifixion begin.
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Old 11-10-2017, 11:51 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Honestly, this is starting to feel like it's just a huge distraction from some other crap going on.

/ConspiracyCap
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Old 11-11-2017, 12:15 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yeah. I'm calling bullshit on this one.
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Old 11-11-2017, 04:24 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I've believed everyone who has come forward since this season of disclosure began. There is no way I can internally justify making an exception this time. So far I've been pretty lucky all things considered, but I've known from the beginning that there was going to come a moment when somebody in Hollywood I actually liked and respected, or heck even just gave a damn about, was hit with an allegation; and I've been telling myself the whole time that I'd still side with the person making the claim until there was a positive reason to make an exception besides my personal feelings about the accused. Well, looks like the chips are down now; so, I'm going to believe it.

And George Takei isn't the last one you really like who will be accused either, so we may as well be ready.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:47 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I've believed everyone who has come forward since this season of disclosure began. There is no way I can internally justify making an exception this time.
The others accused so far had deep, somewhat known patterns of such behavior and sometimes even admitted to it. So far this is just one unsubstantiated claim. I will wait to see what else comes to light before I make a judgement.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:53 AM   #6 (permalink)
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The others accused so far had deep, somewhat known patterns of such behavior and sometimes even admitted to it. So far this is just one unsubstantiated claim. I will wait to see what else comes to light before I make a judgement.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:14 AM   #7 (permalink)
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As I said recently when allegations about a government minister repeatedly putting his hand on the knee of a journalist was reported... it's possible that someone who tries to kiss or fondle someone and desists when told to, has simply misread the signs. Someone who repeatedly puts their hand on a knee and has to be threatened with violence to stop... there will be others.

The incident reported here is highly abusive behaviour, not drunken fumbling or misuse of the power a star has over someone else. If this accusation is true, there will be others. Although if someone uses drugs to overpower others, their recollection may not be reliable.

There are as many dangers in cravenly believing your idols to be immune as there are in believing every story told about them. People do things for the weirdest of reasons and 15 minutes of fame could be the motive, or might deter someone from reporting, you just can't tell.
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Old 11-11-2017, 08:53 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I haven't believed all the allegations ever, and here's the thing... if it happened once, then it could be an aberration, or it could be someone making accusations to get fame, money or revenge for a slight.

If it happened a lot, then a bunch of folks will come forward and say something. I mean, look at Spacey, for example, or Weinstein, or well any of a number of others.

And I say this as a survivor myself. We need to listen, but we also need to not just assume someone is telling the truth when they say 'Oh, so-n-so did this to me' especially if it doesn't match up with anything else.
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Old 11-11-2017, 09:57 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Before I retired from my work in the criminal justice system I was involved in numerous complaints of rape and sexual assault. Certainly some people do make false allegations for whatever reason, particularly in high-profile cases like this, though I don't think it's particularly common.

Each complaint has to be considered and investigated individually.

George Takei strongly denies the allegations and I'm certainly prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt unless there's some credible evidence to support them (which might well include credible allegations by unrelated complainants of similar misconduct).

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Old 11-11-2017, 12:53 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I know most allegations are true, or true enough to be trusted, and I know most times, they are treated as false and the survivor as someone who is the one at fault, its just, well, I think of Michael Jackson, where one accusation, and no other kid came forth to say anything, or even Johnny Depp [unless I've missed something], who has only ever been accused of abuse from a woman who got busted for abusing her girlfriend.

I mean, people will make outlandish [such as going to school with Michael Stipe - still don't know if she was full of it or not] claims to get fame, money or revenge, of all sorts - sometimes they're true, other times, not so true.
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Old 11-11-2017, 01:52 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Someone posted this on another forum.


(The Youtube account hosting it is gross, but it's a clip of an interview that actually did happen so.)

I found a DailyKos article discussing it that reads well and logical, but then she says this:

Quote:
He is talking about men who accepted an invitation into his home, and being firm with them so as to get them past fear.
I'm sorry, but no. No. No. No. And no.
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:13 PM   #12 (permalink)
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We're about to enter a difficult period I think. Not only, as mentioned above, that some names we admire might be named, but some less credible or even false accusations may surface from those thinking the trend might lower their burden of proof. That the claims will be accepted more easily and ride the wave.

We are each going to have to ask ourselves what criteria we are using to determine our reaction or feelings about the claims. Is it volume of accusers? Is it the reputation of the accused or reputation of the accuser? Is it that undefined gut instinct that the person being accused feels like the sort who would do something like that? Or the opposite?

Most troubling, for me anyway, is that I personally don't seem to feel each accused is innocent until proven guilty. Some I mentally deem guilty right away. Others? Well if I'm honest I don't know that I'm 100% following the "I believe you" movement that I do think is important to changing how victims are treated, and the rate of reporting.

Lastly, when I admit to myself that I am making judgment calls, do I then have to be more respectful of those doing the same and who are just defending the accused that I've dismissed as guilty for the same reasons I am reluctant to buy into other claims without more information?

Ugh.
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Someone posted this on another forum.

George Takei Admitted To Sexually Harassing Men On A Howard Stern Podcast - YouTube

(The Youtube account hosting it is gross, but it's a clip of an interview that actually did happen so.)

I found a DailyKos article discussing it that reads well and logical, but then she says this:
Quote:
He is talking about men who accepted an invitation into his home, and being firm with them so as to get them past fear.
I'm sorry, but no. No. No. No. And no.
That, of course, is not what's been alleged here. Brunton says that he passed out while at Takei's home and awoke to find Takei removing his (Brunton's) trousers. Brunton says he then told Takei to stop, and he did.

Since Brunton was, he says, passed out at the time, he was incapable of consenting, so removing his trousers would have been an assault, but as soon as he woke up and made his objections clear, Takes didn't, on Brunton's account, try to force him or even "be firm" with him. He stopped when asked to.

On the wider question of what Takei describes, it's clear to me (and to English law) that there's a vital distinction between consent, even grudging consent, and unwilling submission. On Takei's account, his activities were always consensual, and I'm certainly prepared to accept that until someone comes along and says differently.

Many of us, in a similar position, would probably have said to Takei, "No, I won't be pushed into this. Take your hands off me right now." The fact that other people reacted differently doesn't, it seems to me, necessarily mean they simply submitted to his advances and did not, in the event, consent to them.

And it certainly doesn't mean that unless somebody actually comes forward and says that's what happened -- "I told him to stop, but he wouldn't, and I was too frightened to resist him."
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:43 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I've heard the gamut of excuses and "you just didn't know you wanted it" has been one of them, or variations of it. "Skittish" falls under that umbrella to me. Someone shows resistance or uncertainty, you stop. You don't grab their genitalia.

As for the quote from the DailyKos:

Quote:
He is talking about men who accepted an invitation into his home, and being firm with them so as to get them past fear.
If a male writer had said this about a woman who was assaulted by a man, that place would've been rightfully burned in effigy. I'm failing to see why this is, or should be, any different.
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:45 PM   #15 (permalink)
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If a male writer had said this about a woman who was assaulted by a man, that place would've been rightfully burned in effigy. I'm failing to see why this is, or should be, any different.
"The harder the resistance, the greater the rebound" is a common bro-ism.
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:49 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Since Brunton was, he says, passed out at the time, he was incapable of consenting, so removing his trousers would have been an assault, but as soon as he woke up and made his objections clear, Takes didn't, on Brunton's account, try to force him or even "be firm" with him. He stopped when asked to.
I realize that, but - without the alleged drugs, this is the scenario Roy Moore's 14-year-old victim described. He took off her clothes and was groping her through her underwear. At that point she, too, said "stop" and Moore said "okay" and stopped. But the problem is, the line had already been crossed.
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:52 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Yeah, in my mind fondling someone through their underwear and trying to get your hand down their waistband without their consent isn't on the road to assault. It is assault.
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I've heard the gamut of excuses and "you just didn't know you wanted it" has been one of them, or variations of it. "Skittish" falls under that umbrella to me. Someone shows resistance or uncertainty, you stop. You don't grab their genitalia.

As for the quote from the DailyKos:



If a male writer had said this about a woman who was assaulted by a man, that place would've been rightfully burned in effigy. I'm failing to see why this is, or should be, any different.
The difference is that no one has, as yet, come forward to say he was forced into doing something non-consensual.

Rather than speculate about what Takei may have been describing in the radio interview, I'll wait for someone to come along and describe something that he says actually happened, what Takei did, and what he did, and whether it was consensual or not.
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:58 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Except this guy did.

He said he woke up to Takei touching his penis through his underwear and trying to stick his hand down his waistband. While he was passed out.

If I related that happening to me to someone and they questioned whether I was really assaulted or not, I'd go sheet-white and punch them in the face. As it stands, and at the risk of showing my ass and having people think I'm "taking this personally", I've had family members face much the same thing. And saw the result. It wasn't a punch in the face, it was much worse.

So I'll take this guy's assertion that him being passed out and waking up to being fondled wasn't consensual. Which counts as assault.
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Old 11-11-2017, 03:08 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Except this guy did.

He said he woke up to Takei touching his penis through his underwear and trying to stick his hand down his waistband. While he was passed out.

If I related that happening to me to someone and they questioned whether I was really assaulted or not, I'd go sheet-white and punch them in the face. As it stands, and at the risk of showing my ass and having people think I'm "taking this personally", I've had family members face much the same thing. And saw the result. It wasn't a punch in the face, it was much worse.

So I'll take this guy's assertion that him being passed out and waking up to being fondled wasn't consensual. Which counts as assault.
We're at cross purposes. What Brunton describes, Takei says never happened. He doesn't recall ever having met Brunton, and he's never behaved that way to anyone.

The sort of behaviour Takei describes in the interview, involving men other than Brunton who are fully conscious, doesn't seem to me to match what Brunton describes, unless we think that, for Takei, "being skittish" encompasses "being passed out."
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Old 11-11-2017, 03:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that maybe people lie to cover their ass. Or that behaviour can escalate. Or that no two incidents are the same.

Or that maybe, just maybe, this guy is a liar. But that Takei still admitted to coercing men into sexual contact through their hesitations.
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Old 11-11-2017, 03:25 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that maybe people lie to cover their ass. Or that behaviour can escalate. Or that no two incidents are the same.
And I'm saying that the incident that Brunton describes bears so little resemblance to the sort of thing Takei describes in the radio interview that I can't see how it's relevant to the credibility of Brunton's account one way or the other.

Takei describes behaviour to which he assumed that the other men would not object, despite their being, in his works, "skittish."

Brunton says Takei took advantage of his being unconscious to assault him.

There's a world of difference between the two, it seems to me, so I don't see what Takei's comments in the interview add to our understanding of the situation.

ETA I will wait for someone to come forward and say "Takei coerced me into something" before worrying about that. Coercion is when someone's forced into something against their will. When someone's incapable of consent, the question of coercion doesn't arise.
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Old 11-11-2017, 03:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Here is my worry in all of this. And it's kind D of tengential to if George T is guilty or not. With all of the recent things "coming to light" I really worry we will get a lot of false claims start popping up. I worry more we will get a lot more "This famous guy hit on my years ago, now is my chance to claim harassment (or worse, some kind of rape) because it's the "new hot way to get attention".

I am not saying it doesn't or hasn't happened. Just saying I feel like there may be a lot more exaggerated claims popping up. Especially since so many feel like they are pushed as fact out of the gate.


Also, putting back on the conspiracy cap from previously, it also feels like a push to make "liberal Hollywood" look bad possibly in expectation of something worse coming on the right end (like the supposed Piss tape).
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Old 11-11-2017, 03:29 PM   #24 (permalink)
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The fact that he admits to grabbing men by the penis when they show hesitation doesn't add any credence to the allegation that he might have a problem with respecting sexual boundaries?

Alright.

We obviously diverge vastly along the road somewhere (to me, assault is assault whether you're awake or not, able to withhold consent or not) but we both agree before the fork that assaulting someone is a bad thing so let's leave it there. Because this is honestly making me feel queasy.
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Old 11-11-2017, 05:20 PM   #25 (permalink)
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The fact that he admits to grabbing men by the penis when they show hesitation doesn't add any credence to the allegation that he might have a problem with respecting sexual boundaries?
I am reading something different in what Takai is describing.

There is a difference between hesitation in consenting to sex, and hesitating to break the barrier of taboo sex, even though they could very well have been consenting to begin with.

It isn't easy to explain, but the latter is how I understood that, and not really uncommon.
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