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Old 11-11-2017, 05:40 PM   #26 (permalink)
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The others accused so far had deep, somewhat known patterns of such behavior and sometimes even admitted to it. So far this is just one unsubstantiated claim. I will wait to see what else comes to light before I make a judgement.
Yes, on one hand I do not want to play favorites and say 'oh, he could not have done it' and (edit: forgot the word 'not' here) give the victim space. On the other hand though the previous people either had rumors about them, you could see doing it, there were multiple incidents, or they outright admitted it when accused. This is so completely far from the image around Takei though that it will take more than a single accusation.
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Old 11-11-2017, 05:56 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I was actually willing to give Johnny Depp the benefit of the doubt until that video of him drunk came out. I've seen that "spirit" too many times to not recognize it. When my step-father used to walk around like that with his chest puffed out when drunk I used to call him "Mr. Large and In Charge," and he is very abusive. So, Johnny Depp can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:16 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I am reading something different in what Takai is describing.

There is a difference between hesitation in consenting to sex, and hesitating to break the barrier of taboo sex, even though they could very well have been consenting to begin with.

It isn't easy to explain, but the latter is how I understood that, and not really uncommon.
I realise it's not simply a question of the legalities, but English law says that one of the elements of sexual assault, at least in the sort of circumstances we're discussing here, is that the defendant does not reasonably believe that the complainant consents.

So, in English law -- and, I think, in general social interaction -- if someone genuinely misreads the situation and, at a certain point during the evening, mistakenly attempts some form of intimate touching in the erroneous belief that it will be not unwelcome, that may result in angry words or a slapped face, but it's not an unlawful assault so long as he backs off as soon as his companion objects.

That's different from someone being simply reckless and not caring whether the object of his attentions minds being grabbed or not -- what I'm old enough to call "not safe in taxis".

That is an assault, since there's no reasonable belief in consent (maybe there is a hope that the victim doesn't object, or even a belief that when you're famous they let you grab them there, but no real belief that the other party consents).

I think what George Takei describes in the interview is an example of the former. It may be regarded as clumsy or crass or ungentlemanly behaviour, but I don't think it's an assault if Takei reasonably believes his attentions are welcome, despite his companion's initial nervousness.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:19 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Not sure what to make of this story. George seems like enough of a narcissist that being with someone who was too incapacitated to pay attention to him would be a turn off, not a turn on. But what do I know.

At least the accuser wasn't under 18 at the time, which is more than can be said about most of the rest of the scumbags that are finally being outed.

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Old 11-11-2017, 07:52 PM   #30 (permalink)
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The fact that he admits to grabbing men by the penis when they show hesitation doesn't add any credence to the allegation that he might have a problem with respecting sexual boundaries?
I think the biggest disagreement between you and others here isn't in where the understanding of where consent ends, but in what interpretation you are taking of Takai's vague statements.

I don't think Takai was trying to say he was forcing them at all. The interpretation of the word "skittish" is important here. Maybe he would have described me as "skittish" during my first time, but it was consensual. "Nervous" may have been a better word.
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Old 11-11-2017, 08:30 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I don't like George Takai. He strikes me as entirely too self-righteous, and in my experience people who act like that often have something to hide. But, knowing that I am biased against him from the start - I am trying to reserve judgement about this allegation.
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Old 11-12-2017, 04:56 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Old 11-12-2017, 06:18 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Don't let simple-minded reactionaries control the terms of discussion. These are unevidenced accusations, and you are right to limit your suspicion proportionately until evidence appears. You don't have some kind of moral duty of consistency to assume George Takai is guilty just because you assumed someone else is guilty on good evidence, or based on their character or history, or even an admission of guilt from them. It isn't bias or hypocrisy to give a person the benefit of the doubt if you have no actual reason to do otherwise.
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Old 11-12-2017, 06:51 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I like George Takei in that superficial way I can claim to like a celebrity who I've met in large groups of people, and who has said things in public that I find witty or admirable. This translates to "I like the image he projects."

How well that image matches the private persona is anyone's guess. Even true friends of his may not know.

Takei's comments on the Stern show aren't necessarily damning, but they raise a warning flag for me. Gay people deal with a lot of guilt when it comes to sex, and I could interpret his reference to "skittishness" as part of that dynamic, where closeted gays are grappling with what they're doing, no matter how much they may want to do it. Or it could be the justification that predators use to convince themselves they're not pressuring someone unduly.

The drug/molest accusation is not a peccadillo. That's not "coming on too strong", it's sexual assault, the level of sexual assault that is unlikely to be a one-off. It involves pre-meditation and a very strong impulse to control and dominate. So I'm inclined to see who else emerges from the woodwork to support this man's claim. Because if there's any merit to this charge, as people have said in the thread already, there WILL be others.

If they don't come forward, then it's a he-said-he-said and who the fuck knows what really happened.
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Old 11-12-2017, 08:10 AM   #35 (permalink)
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The drug/molest accusation is not a peccadillo. That's not "coming on too strong", it's sexual assault, the level of sexual assault that is unlikely to be a one-off. It involves pre-meditation and a very strong impulse to control and dominate. So I'm inclined to see who else emerges from the woodwork to support this man's claim. Because if there's any merit to this charge, as people have said in the thread already, there WILL be others.
I'm stuck between believing George capable of this ... and believing the accuser capable of embellishing inebriation into incapacitation giving his story just enough traction to make it stick.

So, until something else comes to light (or until my opinion has any relevance in the matter, which it won't). I guess I've got to give both the benefit of the doubt.

Selfishly however, I want to believe the accusation is false, not for George's sake, but because he has become so much of an icon and visible representative of the gay community. This all will reflect worse on us than Spacey's utterly heinous self-outing.
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Old 11-12-2017, 08:19 AM   #36 (permalink)
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We're about to enter a difficult period I think. Not only, as mentioned above, that some names we admire might be named, but some less credible or even false accusations may surface from those thinking the trend might lower their burden of proof. That the claims will be accepted more easily and ride the wave.
I think we have already entered that period. This trial by public opinion is a natural and normal reaction, but it is a very dangerous thing as well when there are real and instant repercussions. I am not sure this is a healthy path we are walking down anymore. It is too easy to gleefully condemn someone I despise, like Moore, while finding my self-putting finger on the scales for someone I admire like Takai or CK, just because I like them.

Like you, I have struggled with where you draw the line. How much evidence do I need? I know that I personally need some, certainly more than one person making an accusation against another. People lie, and they do it for some crazy reasons. One thing we were always taught in journalism class was the idea of "multiple sources", and I think I fall somewhere in there.

Then what about when we do make up our mind that the person is guilty, or they come out and admit it? Now we mock their admittance and defend the loss of their career. I have done it more than once.

I also keep thinking about Robert Downey Jr. In today's environment, Downey would never have come through his ordeal. First, we'd be inundated by the "I was the victim of Downey's drug-filled behavior" stories on a daily basis. Then he would be effectively "blacklisted" and unable to work, all before he went to jail multiple times and served more time than any of the current celebs will (except maybe Spacey). In today's environment, no Iron Man for Downey.

It is a natural instinct, but I feel there is something wrong with passing judgments and handing down a sentence within a 48-hour news cycle. Of course, it is only natural to have an opinion on something, but opinions are far from certainties. I had hopes something good might have come from the whole Weinstein affair, now I am afraid it might have started something that will have a terrible backlash.

Ultimately you will have to decide for yourself where to draw that line Cake. For me, even though I am not a devoutly religious person, I find merit in the idea of not judging others or at least judging others the way I'd want to be judged. I just find this way of thinking healthier for myself and for coping with all the names I seem to read about on an almost daily basis now.

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Old 11-12-2017, 10:17 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Don't let simple-minded reactionaries control the terms of discussion. These are unevidenced accusations, and you are right to limit your suspicion proportionately until evidence appears. You don't have some kind of moral duty of consistency to assume George Takai is guilty just because you assumed someone else is guilty on good evidence, or based on their character or history, or even an admission of guilt from them. It isn't bias or hypocrisy to give a person the benefit of the doubt if you have no actual reason to do otherwise.
Exactly, with George right now it is a he said/he said situation. Maybe the accusation is true, maybe it is not. There just is no evidence to say who is telling the truth.

With pretty much everyone else that has been accused lately there has been evidence, multiple victims, admittance from the perp, rumors going back years, and so on.

No, I am not being inconsistent, they are not analogous situations.
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:44 AM   #38 (permalink)
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With pretty much everyone else that has been accused lately there has been evidence, multiple victims, admittance from the perp, rumors going back years, and so on.


For Cosby, Weinstein, Spacey, CK and even Dreyfuss, the news reports are lancing the open secrets of Hollywood and letting the general public know what everyone in the industry already knew. There's no need to second-guess whether or not the charges are true because the preponderance of evidence was already out there.

I'm sure Takei won't be the only person, however, who may fall into a new rank of "I never heard that before" both within the industry and without. That begs a different level of scrutiny.
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:53 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Yes, if he was assaulting people surely someone would have heard of it. I am sure I am not the only LGBT person who had a friend back in the 80s say he was having sex with that person's friend (via a email entitled 'Sulu is gay!' was how I found out) and he was in the closet at the time. If he was not taking more care to hide that fact when not out I am a bit skeptical that even now he would be doing an elaborate story to cover up this story.
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:01 AM   #40 (permalink)
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What worries me is that even (let's hope) nothing else comes out about Takei, will there always now be an asterisk by his name? Will he always have a scarlet question mark by his name now that costs him work or invites? Does he ever just get to be George Takei again? I hope people, as a whole, are willing to give these kinds of one-off claims that different level of scrutiny.
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:35 PM   #41 (permalink)
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What worries me is that even (let's hope) nothing else comes out about Takei, will there always now be an asterisk by his name?
Let's put this into perspective. Take the worst case scenario that legions of men are unfairly accused and left in this interim state of "s/he said he said" that is never resolved one way or another.

Absolutely no question that this is an unfair situation. This is not an ideal outcome, not one we would wish on any innocent man.

Yet for hundreds, even thousands of years we've tolerated the significantly more unfair situation of women who have been harmed without any recourse for justice or even public acknowledgement of the crimes against them. In fact, more often than not, the women could themselves be blamed and ostracized for being victims of sexual violence.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's funny how people get all concerned about justice and equity when it's a relatively small number of men who are suddenly starting to suffer, not just large numbers of women who have suffered for a very very long time.

It's similar to the way white people get on their high horse about discrimination when a few white people lose out despite merit. Suddenly they're up in arms about the injustice of it all! Funny how injustice against millions of black people for hundreds of years didn't upset them all that much.

Someone innocent is always going to get stuck in the middle of a social upheaval. There will be injustices, but there will be less on that side of the equation than on the side of victims/targets of abuse finally speaking out.

Let the voices ring out. I'm all for it.

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Old 11-12-2017, 08:43 PM   #42 (permalink)
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... but it's funny how people get all concerned about justice and equity when it's a relatively small number of men who are suddenly starting to suffer, not just ...
I do sorta worry that so *many* may end up accused that outrage fatigue sets in and people give up, thinking "just about everybody's doing it, just get over it".

Personally, I'm less interested in the past he-said.v.someone-else-said but never provable accounts of misconduct. I'm more interested in seeing habitual misconduct curb stomped as it happens by people willing to pull out their phones and openly record it, if they're at all able to.

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Old 11-13-2017, 02:02 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The one problem with too many accusations against the innocent is that it makes it harder to make people listen to the orders of magnitude more accusations that are against the guilty - if that makes sense.

That's my big concern, that if too many of these are crying 'wolf' than just how many more survivors are going to end up getting ignored when there really is a problem.
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Old 11-13-2017, 02:18 PM   #44 (permalink)
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The one problem with too many accusations against the innocent is that it makes it harder to make people listen to the orders of magnitude more accusations that are against the guilty - if that makes sense.

That's my big concern, that if too many of these are crying 'wolf' than just how many more survivors are going to end up getting ignored when there really is a problem.
A legitimate concern which demonstrates just how fucked up American society really is.
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Old 11-13-2017, 02:33 PM   #45 (permalink)
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The one problem with too many accusations against the innocent is that it makes it harder to make people listen to the orders of magnitude more accusations that are against the guilty - if that makes sense.

That's my big concern, that if too many of these are crying 'wolf' than just how many more survivors are going to end up getting ignored when there really is a problem.
Off course false complaints are a problem, but to what extent do you think that's the case with the incidents over the last few weeks?

As far as I'm concerned, we know that the complaints about Louis CK are true, since he agrees they are. As to the others, we can only make up our own minds on the basis of the evidence available and the responses of the men concerned. As far as I'm concerned, the allegations concerning Roy Moore seem perfectly credible, as do most, if not all, of the allegations I've read about Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey.

The only case in which the allegation seems groundless is this one, the single allegation about George Takei, where there doesn't appear to be any corroborative evidence.

Maybe I mistake the point, but I don't think I've heard many recognisable cries of "wolf!" over the last few weeks.
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:02 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Maybe I mistake the point, but I don't think I've heard many recognisable cries of "wolf!" over the last few weeks.
Just recently I'd heard one solitary such accusation about Bowie, who is no longer around to say yay or nay, and its from someone who just happened to have been kidnapped and held for four years by Jimmy Page, at least according to her.

Honestly, my rule of thumb is, if there is a pattern, than I doubt everyone is lying, and if there isn't a pattern, its still possible, but I'm willing to see if there is more forthcoming.

And there has been a lot of different things coming out about a bunch of different people, and not all of them have had more people coming forth yet.
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Old 11-13-2017, 04:35 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Just recently I'd heard one solitary such accusation about Bowie, who is no longer around to say yay or nay, and its from someone who just happened to have been kidnapped and held for four years by Jimmy Page, at least according to her.

Honestly, my rule of thumb is, if there is a pattern, than I doubt everyone is lying, and if there isn't a pattern, its still possible, but I'm willing to see if there is more forthcoming.

And there has been a lot of different things coming out about a bunch of different people, and not all of them have had more people coming forth yet.
The Bowie one I'd forgotten about. Yeah, that one I can believe, actually, since I'm only a couple of years older than Lori Mattix. Indeed, a friend of mine was one of Mick Ronson's groupies back when he was an unknown in Hull, in his early 20s and she was either 15 or 16 (the age of consent here is 16, but I don't think either she or he were worried about that at the time). And there's no doubt that the hugely popular British DJ and broadcaster John Peel, then living in Texas and working as a freelance journalist, married his first wife, Shirley Anne Milburn when he was 26 and she was 15 (according to Wikipedia, Peel later described the marriage as "mutual defence pact").

The difference is, though, that, at least as far as we know, Bowie, Peel,Mick Ronson and, doubtless, many other 60s and 70s rock stars and DJs put that behind them. That's why they're seen in rather a different light than are, for example, Garry Glitter and Jimmy Savile.
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Old 11-13-2017, 08:09 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Ever notice how famous scientists or programmers don't usually do things like murder and pedophilia? It's always celebrities and politicians. There was Hans Reiser, but he was the exception.
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Old 11-13-2017, 08:42 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Ever notice how famous scientists or programmers don't usually do things like murder and pedophilia? It's always celebrities and politicians. There was Hans Reiser, but he was the exception.
Paging "dr." Mengele. Party for one overlooking the sulfur lake.
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Old 11-13-2017, 08:48 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Paging "dr." Mengele. Party for one overlooking the sulfur lake.
He wasn't well known as a doctor though, like say, Jonas Salk, before his atrocities.
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