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Old 10-02-2017, 06:14 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Las Vegas Concert Attack Is Deadliest Mass Shooting In Modern US History

More than 50 people are dead and over 200 injured after a gunman opened fire at an outdoor concert in Las Vegas Sunday night. Police believe there was a single gunman who has been killed. He fired on the crowd of 30,000 at a music festival from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay resort.

Vegas shooting: Live updates - CNN
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:26 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Remember this is NOT the time to talk about what role guns played in the mass gun deaths last night. *sigh*
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:41 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:53 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Las Vegas gunman suspect is Stephen Paddock, 64, of Mesquite, Nevada: NBC News
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Old 10-02-2017, 07:00 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Sorry, but I really do not care about who the gunman is, I want to know about the victims first. For all I care he can shuffle off into obscurity, but our media always insists on making the people that cause these disasters famous, which often is what they wanted.
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Old 10-02-2017, 07:50 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Old 10-02-2017, 08:04 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Old 10-02-2017, 08:24 AM   #8 (permalink)
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First I heard of this was getting an "I'm safe" message from a close relative who lives near the attack.

Not sure I agree with it not being considered a terror attack. It will leave fear that affects how people live their lives for the foreseeable future.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:40 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Yeah, but I think a terror attack is defined as having that as an intended effect - if you just snap, it might cause terror, but not be even thought of as a reason to do it.

And I guess it will end when we put guns in with the rest of our 'arms' that have enforced regulations.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:42 AM   #10 (permalink)
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The feds have a definition for terrorism:

The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:25 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Some asshole on Facebook said that if I owned a sub-machine gun that I wouldn't use it to kill people. This guy would have found another way to kill.

I was like 1) Why would I want a submachine gun except wanting to kill people with it? I have a stungun and a baseball bat for self-defense. 2) He might have still found a way to kill people with another weapon, but the body count wouldn't have been nearly so high.
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:27 AM   #12 (permalink)
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The feds have different definitions for terrorism depending on who is asked.

What's the definition of 'terrorism'? | PolitiFact


I can't believe that an unknown motive is a good enough reason to shield an action from the word.

Making the point to specifically clarify that it wasn't terrorism looks to me like shorthand code for not Muslim; not brown in this case.
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:34 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Like any other word, if you broaden its definition to mean just about anything the word isn't useful. If someone shoots down their family and that is called terrorism, rather than a mass shooting the word loses some of its meaning.
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:37 AM   #14 (permalink)
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This is interesting (from 2015), because the UN has never managed a universally acceptable definition of terrorism

https://www.thequint.com/voices/opin...fine-terrorism

"Since 2000, the UN Ad Hoc Committee has been examining a draft paper on “Comprehensive Convention on International Terrorism” – including a common definition. The latest report on the UN web is of 2011. The progress is unsatisfactory. Members of various political hues are still divided over what could be the exact definition of terrorism. In my opinion, it will be a miracle if we arrive at any acceptable global definition."
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:46 AM   #15 (permalink)
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One is a mass shooting for unknown reasons. The other is a political act. Both cause terror.
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:48 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Like any other word, if you broaden its definition to mean just about anything the word isn't useful. If someone shoots down their family and that is called terrorism, rather than a mass shooting the word loses some of its meaning.
If someone shoots down hundreds of people they don't even know, killing at least 50, and it is not called terrorism - it also loses some of its meaning.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:04 AM   #17 (permalink)
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If someone shoots down hundreds of people they don't even know, killing at least 50, and it is not called terrorism - it also loses some of its meaning.
Labeling ISIS members terrorists is useful in that the organization needs to be infiltrated to put a halt to their activities. The word terrorism is also used to curtail a lot of activities such as freedom of movement in an airport. Calling a random wacko who managed to do a lot of damage a terrorist does not serve a useful purpose other than to instill fear in the population.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:14 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Apparently because he's local, i.e. white, he isn't a terrorist. Give me a break.

Families are experiencing terror and their lives have changed forever. People were murdered at a concert just like what happened in Manchester. How is that not terror?
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:17 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I'd argue it's not the largest or deadliest mass shooting in American history, but hey, who listens to the Indigenous about these things anyway?
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:24 AM   #20 (permalink)
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The feds have different definitions for terrorism depending on who is asked.

What's the definition of 'terrorism'? | PolitiFact


I can't believe that an unknown motive is a good enough reason to shield an action from the word.

Making the point to specifically clarify that it wasn't terrorism looks to me like shorthand code for not Muslim; not brown in this case.
Depends on the context in which people are using words, I think.

In a legal context, terrorism is very much a matter of intent. That's because, at least in the UK, many serious crimes -- including murder, of course -- may or may not be acts of terrorism. If the police are investigating a murder as a suspected terrorist offence, that gives them much wider investigatory powers than they would otherwise have. Similarly, when a case is prosecuted, the fact the crime was committed for terrorist motives is generally treated as an extremely aggravating factor when it comes to sentencing.

In both these cases, it seems to me, it's very important to insist on the legal distinction between crimes in general and crimes committed for terrorist ends, since otherwise it's wide open to abuse.

There are also, of course, at least in the UK, some specific offences for which terrorist motives are an essential component of the offence, which the prosecution has to prove to a criminal standard to get a conviction (e.g. preparation of terrorist acts, which is a lot broader than "conspiring to" or "attempting to").

See the Crown Prosecution Service's Terrorism - Fact Sheet for further details of the UK legal background.

I imagine similar considerations apply in the USA.

Certainly the idea of giving law enforcement the power to treat any offence they're investigating as a terrorist offence until they're satisfied that's not the motivation seems wide open to abuse.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:26 AM   #21 (permalink)
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The Oklahoma City Bombing was a terrorist attack. The Unabomber engaged in terrorism. ISIS engages in terrorism.

Each of these examples had/have a political or social motivation behind their actions and chose to use acts which can/will instill fear in an attempt to force the changes they wish/wished to see.

A person snapping and picking up a weapon then going on a rampage is not a terrorist, they do not give a flying fuck about any sort of change. Someone pushed them too far or something happened to cause them to lose it and everyone around them must pay the price.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:31 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Labeling ISIS members terrorists is useful in that the organization needs to be infiltrated to put a halt to their activities. The word terrorism is also used to curtail a lot of activities such as freedom of movement in an airport. Calling a random wacko who managed to do a lot of damage a terrorist does not serve a useful purpose other than to instill fear in the population.
Labeling hoarders of weapons by those who would use them to kill masses is useful in that they need to be recognized and somehow targeted to put a halt to their activities.

How does it instill fear in the population to call it what it is?
Or is it only more useful to instill that fear if it is not organized?
Even that can be debated. It took a minimal amount of organizing to put together the final event, same as it did in Orlando.
Maybe it depends on if ISIS decides to claim credit.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:32 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I just get tired of the whole country being put in a state of paralysis and fright over everything by calling everything a terrorist act. It's replaced the war on drugs as a means of scaring everyone into submission.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:33 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Not at all sure I believe them, but :

Las Vegas shooting: Isis claims responsibility for deadliest gun massacre in US history | The Independent
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:35 AM   #25 (permalink)
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We're living in a society where terror happens so often that it's now necessary to split hairs on the meaning of it. That makes me very sad.

People were murdered. Families are destroyed. That's what's important here.
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