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Old 09-25-2017, 07:58 PM   #1 (permalink)
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O say can you see, where this might be going?

I wanted to start this thread to see if there is anyone else out there who is not again, but maybe "uncomfortable" about where this whole take part in the national anthem thing ( I am not going to call it an issue) might go?

I totally support San Fransisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick's kneeling for the anthem. I don't look at it a slam toward the flag or the anthem, but as a way of drawing attention to the ingrained racism in this country that we need to look at. On the other hand, I am not sure how comfortable I am with a coach or team members deciding a whole team should stay in the locker and not come out during the anthem.

The anthem, despite being one of the most poorly written songs of all time, is important to me. I have mentioned previously that I have lost family who believed in what that flag and that anthem stand for....which is ironically the right of people like Kaepernick not to stand for it.

Nor do I like how Trump and Brightbart and the right are going to use this to demonize the left. Fair or not, we WILL pay a price politically for all this.

Good stories, pointing to different aspects of the protest:

#TakeAKnee Isn’t About The Flag. It’s About America’s Racism.

Trump’s NFL Attacks Appear To Fuel Huge Facebook Gains For Breitbart And Fox

The Latest Wave Of NFL Protests Is Likely To Be Unpopular. That Shouldn’t Be A Surprise.


Clearly, by this disjointed post, I am conflicted about where this is obviously headed and i guess I am just wondering if I am the only one?
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Old 09-25-2017, 08:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I think it's just misplaced to diefy and practically worship the flag or the anthem (which started out as an upper class London drinking song (the Anacreontic Society). It's too damn easy for scoundrels to wrap themselves in those symbols.

If you have to glorify something, make it the Bill of Rights.
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Old 09-25-2017, 08:26 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The way I have to look at it all, is I have to see how the people Kaepernick is protesting for have been systematically denied every avenue of protest no matter which method is used.

Go out and march in the street? You're a violent thug. No matter what. Also inconsiderately harassing and blocking innocent and uninvolved people who just want to get home after a long day of work.

Show up at a government meeting? Too loud and you're a violent thug, intimidating public servants; if you're not loud but in too large of numbers, you're still selfishly monopolizing a public forum and preventing the representatives from getting any work done including on your behalf.

Hold a disruptive rally somewhere on a college campus? Outdoors, you're a violent thug, intimidating innocent (white) students and unsympathetic faculty; indoors, you're preventing uninvolved (white) people from getting the education their parents are paying good money for.

Quietly kneel down, raise a fist, or lock arms on a football field? Finally you're not a violent thug! You're just a "son of a bitch who deserves to be fired" and is spitting in the face of the whole country, especially old veterans live and dead who fought for it (we pretend veterans who are actually okay with or even supportive of the protesters don't exist or are just old and senile or something).

When it gets right down to it, you can think of anything you can possibly do to protest - where the public can see you - and there's a way to call you violent, disrespectful, selfish, inconsiderate, or unpatriotic. It's a no win situation, and it really goes to show that the actual truth of the matter is that white people don't want to see non-white people complaining or calling attention to the injustice and inequality they face, ever. It's always going to be "the wrong time" or "the wrong place" or "the wrong way" or "too soon after [tragedy] therefore cruelly politicizing [tragedy]", or "just mad that Trump won bigly"; there's always some numpty who will self-righteously lecture the darkies about how this latest stunt "makes me less sympathetic to your cause". There's no way to avoid it, so there's really no incentive to care. If people don't like the NFL or NBA players protesting, they can just not tune in and not buy tickets.

Of course the beauty of this protest is that they won't. No matter what Trump and his ilk say, and how much white-conservative talking heads agitate and throw around the word "boycott", the football fans will never actually boycott the NFL. They can't; the love of football is too deeply ingrained into good-old-boy conservative culture, and too many major corporations have spent tremendous amounts of money for closed suites at stadiums to not make use of them.
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Old 09-25-2017, 08:34 PM   #4 (permalink)
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https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0cdc77332a9ea
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“This has nothing to do with [the] NFL, or American pastime, or tradition,” Williams continued. “This is to get boys and girls to go fly overseas and go kill people. They’re marketing. They’re pumping millions and millions of dollars into the NFL to get us to put on a pageant in front of the NFL football games to get you to go off and fight.”

While patriotic songs have been included at sporting events since 1862, Williams is seemingly referencing “paid patriotism” criticism documented in a 2015 Senate report that pointed to more than $12 million in contracts between the Defense Department and sports teams, CNN previously reported. Millions of dollars went to renting recruitment kiosks and staging patriotic and “heartwarming” tributes at games.

“This not only betrays the sentiment and trust of fans, but casts an unfortunate shadow over the genuine patriotic partnerships that do so much for our troops,” the congressional report stated.

As for the NFL specifically, players were not required to be on the field during the anthem until 2009, per a Vice report
A pov I have not heard mentioned yet.
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Old 09-25-2017, 08:41 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I find it disgraceful that the President would go on some rally, go on national TV, and declare, "Fire the Son of a Bitch!"

See, the President is as much a role model for our youth as athletes are, and should present himself and his office with decorum. Trump seems incapable, since he really is a 12 year old in a sagging, dottering, pallid, flabby nutsuck of an old man's body.

Athletes have a right to protest, and they are doing so peacefully.

I do believe there are more appropriate venues for protest. However, given why they're protesting, I see nothing wrong with taking a knee. After all, it's a song that people often sing terribly at ball games. That, to me, is far, far more offensive than a few football players refusing to stand up during the thing.

That said, I rather think this is the best way to protest, if you really have to protest during a gam:

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Old 09-25-2017, 08:47 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Also the beauty of this whole thing is Trump claiming that ratings dropped for the games this weekend, but according to the sports guy on KCBS, ratings were up 4% during the games.
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Old 09-25-2017, 09:07 PM   #7 (permalink)
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FACT CHECK: Why Are NFL Players on the Sidelines for the National Anthem?

Here Are Some Ways People Disrespect The Flag Daily Based On Flag Code | HuffPost

Also, I may go to hell for this...
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Old 09-25-2017, 09:56 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sredni Eel View Post
I do believe there are more appropriate venues for protest.
I don't see how they could as effectively or safely protest via any other means. These players took their stand where they are most visible and masses of Rump enabled racists, some of whom are scaring the shit out of minorities on a daily basis, saw their protests.

Appropriate? There's a tv reality show host in the White House and late night talk show host/comedian - Steven Colbert - shows more integrity than the president.

Any reservations I have about their actions involve possible backlashes against minorities rather than should they do it or not.
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Old 09-25-2017, 10:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sredni Eel View Post
Also the beauty of this whole thing is Trump claiming that ratings dropped for the games this weekend, but according to the sports guy on KCBS, ratings were up 4% during the games.
Also, the pregame show (last night?) had the highest ratings for a pregame show in 7 years! Also Trump was saying how great (almost all white) nascar is. Then nascar put out a statement

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Sports are a unifying influence in our society, bringing people of differing backgrounds and beliefs together. Our respect for the national anthem has always been a hallmark of our pre-race events. Thanks to the sacrifices of many, we live in a country of unparalleled freedoms and countless liberties, including the right to peacefully express one's opinion.
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Old 09-26-2017, 12:53 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Sort of off topic and unrelated to the protests but I never understood why the anthem was played before professional sports games in the first place, particularly when both teams are from the same country

Olympics? Sure.
NHL where teams are from two countries? Ok... I guess... but any given night the players on those teams represent a half dozen or more different countries.
But why just sports? Why not at the theatre? Or a book reading? Or art exhibit? Or when your doctor walks in the room?

I've got a lot of pent up bullshit psyche scars related to professional sports, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but politicians, the great Government rah rah machines, have been using athletes for generations so this recent turn about of these protests, and some others in recent years makes me chuckle that they don't want athletes to be political now. To be fair I have no great sympathy for millionaire athletes who willingly pursue these careers and it's perks either, but it's refreshing to see them at least try to use that fame to bring awareness.

There is an easy answer to this. Don't want professional athletes being political? Then keep politics out of professional sport. Starting with removing the anthem and close ups of their expressions during it, the convertible rides with politicians, trotting out athletes at rallies and invitations to the White House for winning. While we're at it, let's look closer at the campaign sponsorship and funding of these sports facilities. Athletes aren't zoo animals on display, where for a fee they can be used for political photo ops then shelved, put them on parade at your own risk. Sooner or later they will speak their own mind and ruin the illusion.
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Old 09-26-2017, 01:58 AM   #11 (permalink)
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"Why can't they do this on their own time, instead of shoving it down my throat when I'm just trying to enjoy watching a game." waaah wahh wahaaaaaahh... same crap they spewed trying to push gays back into the closet.

One of my few 'conservative' associates (an online gaming buddy) mentioned earlier today how it's a damned shame that this kind of thing is ruining his enjoyment of watching sports. Conversation concluded with him basically shrugging and saying "I guess I'm just not 'woke' or whatever they call it." I agreed, and "as much as you hate the term 'privilege' leading a successful life without being 'woke' is pretty much central to 'privilege'. But, seriously, once woke? It's like after they turn on the bright lights in a bar after last call. The nasty stuff that was hidden in the shadows isn't fun to look at, which is why we pretend it's not there and keep the lights down the rest of the time.
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Old 09-26-2017, 02:36 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanda Belinda View Post
Also Trump was saying how great (almost all white) nascar is. Then nascar put out a statement
I think that's mostly lip service, Wanda. The organization may be saying that; but what I've heard is that all the team owners have more or less explicitly threatened to fire any driver or crew member who kneels during the National Anthem at any NASCAR event.

ETA: Dale Jr. had something to say about the situation:

Twitter

But he alone of all drivers can probably afford to express himself that way, because he's retiring at the end of this season.

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Old 09-26-2017, 03:28 AM   #13 (permalink)
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/start First Amendment Rant

If you ask Europeans how they view America's reverence for things patriotic, they'll probably think we're a bit whacked about it all. After all, not many Europeans hang their flags outside their homes. Regardless of all that, Trump's vocal opinions on all things carry weight because of the position he's in as the President of the United States. Sad, I know; but, among many that I work with, they view the same opinion as the President. But, the President isn't Joe Snuffy off the block who's opinions you can dismiss off hand. It's shameful that the President uses this very public forum (Twitter), to divide Americans. To him, it's always the same rhetoric, "If you're against me, you're against all things American. And if you choose to protest, you're against America. If you're against America, you're not patriotic. If you're not patriotic, you need to leave. In fact, we'll build a wall for you."

I'm not one to express my political opinions often; but, I make exception now. The way I see it, the 1st Amendment is a Constitutionally protected right. That only means that you can't be arrested solely for expressing your opinion in protest, peaceful protest, not one that results in violence, much like how Martin Luther King protested. That doesn't mean there won't be consequences in doing so, outside of government, such as firing from your job, having someone express their opinion, or protest to you, or any number of other options. First Amendment rights end where private property begins, after all.

In that vein, the President of the United States, the leader of our nation, shouldn't be stirring the fucking pot. It's totally Un-Presidential, and I'm embarrassed to try to explain it to my European friends across the pond.

/end First Amendment Rant
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Old 09-26-2017, 04:04 AM   #14 (permalink)
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The playing of the anthem (and it used to just be the playing; not sure when having a singer got started but I don't think that was there at the start) has pretty much always been an 'introduced' thing. I believe it started in baseball in the late thirties when much of the world was at war (and the US would soon join them) so in that respect it's artificial. Congress, I believe, was behind it, not any league or players. I don't know if it's possible to get it discontinued. I'd like to think each stadium should be able to decide for itself but sports leagues have Commisioners with powers, and of course the Owners combine to set the rules.

I agree with those who have said it makes sense at the Olympics but not so much at an event in the US involving teams that play in the US. Just like at the Olympics, it really only makes sense in baseball when the single remaining Canadian MLB team is playing one of the Americans. There used to be another, the Montreal Expos. They're now playing for Washington D.C., funnily enough. I still remember that I was listening to a playoff game (pretty sure it was Expos/Dodgers) on the radio. Toni Tenille sang the anthems: O Canada and the Star Spangled Banner. It was one of the best no shooting-at-high-notes jobs with the SSB I have ever heard from a professional singer. And Vin Scully did the broadcast. His color guy was Sparky Anderson. It was radio from heaven. There aren't any non-US NFL teams (yet) nor NBA (although a surprising percentage of NBA players, stars even, are from Europe, Asia, and other locales).

One more thing, and it might get some mileage in the press and in Donald's base. At tonight's Monday Night Football game between the Dallas Cowboys and the Arizona Cardinals, the entire Cowboy team took a knee together. But there was a real surprise. The Cowboys are owned by Jerry Jones. I dislike him, much in the sense that Winston Churchill never really warmed to Adolph Hitler. But I am forced to admit he showed an absolute TON of class tonight, down on one knee with his team, arm linked with the player net to him.

Hopefully, that gets talked about.
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Old 09-26-2017, 04:21 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Old 09-26-2017, 04:34 AM   #16 (permalink)
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One more thing, and it might get some mileage in the press and in Donald's base. At tonight's Monday Night Football game between the Dallas Cowboys and the Arizona Cardinals, the entire Cowboy team took a knee together. But there was a real surprise. The Cowboys are owned by Jerry Jones. I dislike him, much in the sense that Winston Churchill never really warmed to Adolph Hitler. But I am forced to admit he showed an absolute TON of class tonight, down on one knee with his team, arm linked with the player net to him.

Hopefully, that gets talked about.
It is getting talked about; but what I've seen on Twitter is many Trumpbots calling this a victory, because Jones "took a knee together with the team" before the anthem, and then joined them all in standing up during it. Which the Trumpists are saying is "more respectful".
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Old 09-26-2017, 01:06 PM   #17 (permalink)
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It is getting talked about; but what I've seen on Twitter is many Trumpbots calling this a victory, because Jones "took a knee together with the team" before the anthem, and then joined them all in standing up during it. Which the Trumpists are saying is "more respectful".
I'm sorry to learn that; means much less than I thought it did, then. Respectful? Of the clown who just called the players 'son's of bitches'? Wrong attitude. This isn't an anthem thing now, it's a personal slap in the face from the sleaze in the White House thing.

The Cowboys used a corporate cop-out, seems like.
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Old 09-26-2017, 04:59 PM   #18 (permalink)
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From game of thrones, to worship in church, to sexual positions... Kneeling is universally recognized s bring deferential, submissive, and or respectful.

Leave it to the opposite world language experts on the so+called "Right".. to call kneeling "disrespectful".

I bet they're just mad that they weren't first to think of kneeling at the flag, and now they can't do it to boast their vainglorious and rabid jingoistic "my god and my country" zeal.
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Old 09-26-2017, 05:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Leafs' Matthews says protesting during anthem dishonours flag - Sportsnet.ca

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But he also supported the Pittsburgh Penguins’ recent decision to accept an invitation to the White House to celebrate their latest Stanley Cup championship, and said if the Maple Leafs were in that position that they would "probably go."
(Austen Matthews is American but plays in Toronto.)


First of all he's an idiot who says himself that he's not really ''into politics'' i.e. he's not really sure about the details but he still has something to say about it. 1st

And secondly, sure Austen, if the Maple Leafs were to win the cup (lol) 2nd you would go to the White House because that's what U.S. president's do, invite Canadian teams to the WH. 3rd

Reporters should ask athletes if they even understand the reasons behind the kneeling during the anthem.
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Old 09-26-2017, 05:52 PM   #20 (permalink)
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when its not an international game between nations then playing a national anthem before the game is weird
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Old 09-26-2017, 07:50 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Actor George Clooney submitted this following "prayer" The Daily Beast. I think he definitely hits the mark.
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Old 09-26-2017, 07:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:02 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Here's a question: People kneel to pray. It's called "genuflect". I would have thought kneeling would be a sign of respect, as well as a peaceful protest.

That said, the ACLU would be all over my school district's ass if I was reprimanded and/or terminated for refusing to stand for the Pledge or the anthem during an assembly.

I get to use special needs kids as my excuse not to stand, but I never do stand for the anthem or the pledge.
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:15 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I'm Lakota. I've always understood the standing/pledge of allegiance as submitting to the colonists. I've never said the pledge of allegiance. Once a boy told me that saying it meant you were saying the government owns us (I was five, I believed him). I wouldn't say it in school, and I got punished for it, which just made me more determined NOT to say it. So I stood and mouthed the words without saying them. I still haven't. I also don't stand for the national anthem unless I'm already standing (I was a h.s. cheerleader. We were standing during it, and yes, they played it before every game). Yeah, don't tell me I"m unpatriotic. I am definitely sure of one thing: I am NOT a patriot for America or the United States in any way. I dont' care if you call me un-American. I am un-American. I'm not anti-American, but I have no wish to be American either. I'm Lakota.
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:53 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Flags and anthems are kinda relics of the past really.
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