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Old 08-12-2017, 07:41 PM   #201 (permalink)
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That's what the whole military chain of command is for. There are infrared satellites whose job is to detect rocket launches, and there are also nuclear detection sensors on the GPS satellites which pick up the radiation from an explosion. Finally, there are all kinds of radars which can track missiles in flight. The combination lets the military say with certainty "this rocket launched from here, and delivered a warhead there".

That information gets sent up the chain of command to the Secretary of Defense or National Security Advisor, whoever is advising the President at the time, and back down as orders to whoever is in position to retaliate. I'm sure there are detailed plans for retaliation, they have had decades to work those out and gather intelligence on the NK military.
Yes, I get that, but what I'm saying is that, according to Maggie, an order to launch nuclear missiles is valid if either a) it is issued by the President and endorsed by the Secretary for Defense or b) it is issued by the President only, without anyone's endorsement, provided that it is retaliation for a nuclear attack on the USA.

It follows, at least to my mind, that somewhere in the chain of command there must therefore be someone whose job it is to inspect the order, notice that it lacks the endorsement of the Secretary for Defense and then decide what to do with it.

I'm sure this officer -- who must be pretty senior -- will have ample information on which to base the decision, but I'm just wondering whose job it is, should there be no first strike by North Korea or anyone else but, nevertheless the Command in Chief issues orders to attack North Korea that lack the endorsement of the Secretary for Defense, to refuse them.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:07 PM   #202 (permalink)
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Innula, to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there isn't a plan for that scenario.

We seem to have almost always operated as though more or less sane, fairly rational people were the ones with their fingers on the nuclear trigger. MAD only works, after all, if everyone playing the game considers being incinerated too high a price to pay to "win." That rather fundamental part of the game was always presumed.

I'm not sure it makes sense to presume that about Kim or His Spray-tan-ness. One can only hope there are more level heads at work somewhere behind the scenes.

It also strikes me that NK doesn't even have MAD going for it -- bizarrely, they want to play this game with the only outcomes being "things stay the same" or "Non-mutually assured destruction." A third option is rather urgently needed, I think, but I sure can't think of one that 45 and his rabid followers could live with.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:15 PM   #203 (permalink)
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Casey, they could live with it, they just don't want to. They'd rather see everyone just as miserable as they are. Nothing anyone can say or do will make them happy. They enjoy being that miserable that much.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:39 PM   #204 (permalink)
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It follows, at least to my mind, that somewhere in the chain of command there must therefore be someone whose job it is to inspect the order, notice that it lacks the endorsement of the Secretary for Defense and then decide what to do with it.

I'm sure this officer -- who must be pretty senior -- will have ample information on which to base the decision, but I'm just wondering whose job it is, should there be no first strike by North Korea or anyone else but, nevertheless the Command in Chief issues orders to attack North Korea that lack the endorsement of the Secretary for Defense, to refuse them.
i have been having a nosey round the internet as I wanted to know the answer to this also. So far what I have found is

it seems that from reading a number of sources that where the Secretary for Defense comes into it, is that this civilian person verifies to the military that it was the Commander in Chief (who may or may not be the person who is the elected President depending on the circumstance) who issued the order

it seems also this is a civilian safety check verifying the person who issued the order, not the content of the order as such. A civilian has no authority to countermand a military order

the Federation of American Scientists website has some broad stuff on OPLAN 8010-12 (the military operation plan for what happens). Not much detail plan content tho


a excerpt from the website here: https://fas.org/blogs/security/2013/04/oplan8010-12/

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OPLAN 8010-12 is produced, maintained, and if so ordered by the president executed by the Joint Functional Component Command for Global Strike (JFCC-GS), a 430-people unit located at STRATCOM at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska. JFCC-GS is responsible for not only nuclear plans but for the full spectrum of kinetic (nuclear and conventional) and non-kinetic effects.
i think that if the Commander of JFCC-GS didnt get civilian verification according to the OPLAN then they would go up the military chain of command for further orders

like I doubt that the JFCC-GS Commander would go direct to the Commander-in-Chief (who in this situation is not a civilian as such) in the first instance in the absence of civilian verification

the commander would probably go to Joint Chiefs of Staff, who would then contact the Secretary for Defense. I dunno exactly tho as I haven't seen the actual OPLAN
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:51 PM   #205 (permalink)
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I think it was Jimmy Kimmel. That's the sort of thing he likes to do on his ABC's Jimmy Kimmel Live. In which case it would have been outside his studio in Hollywood.
Thanks, I got names mixed up - in my defense, I don't watch tv, and certainly nothing later at night. I just catch the videos.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:52 PM   #206 (permalink)
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All I can say is that I imagine that many, many of us are hoping that a mentally deranged, ignorant, self-important fool will see what the implications of his big mouth are.
Hope, yes. Expecting it? I'm afraid not.

Meanwhile, we have assholes emboldened by Trump's campaign promises tearing up Charlottesville, Virginia. The world is turning to shit, and we have The Orange One right in the middle of it.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:01 PM   #207 (permalink)
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This pic is beyond STUPID, this is not how it works!
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I believe it's an attempt at humour, Ranma.
As I'm sure many on SLU will concur, my humor attempt success rate is nowhere near 100%.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:21 PM   #208 (permalink)
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You mean the drills that were basically to give kids some way they could feel in control of their fate because there is not much you can do in that situation.

As to the crackers, track down some military rations.
If you can get your hands on some MREs (Meals Ready to Eat), they're worth a try. They're not great by any stretch of the imagination, but they are an experience. Just go easy on them: Each one is designed to contain a full day's calories a combatant may need.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:22 PM   #209 (permalink)
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...Just go easy on them: Each one is designed to contain a full day's calories a combatant may need.
Yes and no.

Each one will do exactly what you say for some deskbound, sedentary paper-pusher - your typical civilian who could stand to lose some weight (me, for instance, at least nowdays ) - approximately 1,250 (kilo)calories.

If you're a mid-to-low twenties age active duty service member, three MREs is 3,750 (kilo)calories, and even that may not be enough for some jobs/circumstances/climates.

But, yes... I've some MREs in storage for emergencies, and if I were to parcel them out to folks it would be 1 per day per person (it's really a lot of food if you eat/drink everything within a 24-hour period).

ETA: The MRE is the US issue for a single meal. Some countries issue a 24-hour ration that is significantly larger than a single MRE.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:28 PM   #210 (permalink)
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It also strikes me that NK doesn't even have MAD going for it -- bizarrely, they want to play this game with the only outcomes being "things stay the same" or "Non-mutually assured destruction." A third option is rather urgently needed, I think, but I sure can't think of one that 45 and his rabid followers could live with.
Plan C: Get an agreement with China and South Korea that allows the USA to conventionally bomb the hell out of NK's military forces upon provocation, and then let China take over the country. China sits idly by while the USA spends the money and armaments to disarm the highlights of the NK military, and then comes in with the aid, money and governorship NK will need to recover, making them look like the good guys. South Korea just sits by or provides some support to the USA assault and then restores their own side of the border (because there is undoubtedly going to be some collateral damage), and the USA helps them with a recovery package...their benefit coming from a more stable country across the border from them.

Now you can start working on Plan D. lol
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:46 PM   #211 (permalink)
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....and then let China take over the country.... ....
Whoa, whoa, WHOA. Just hold up there one gosh darned minute.



WHO takes over the country?

With kindest regards,
South Korea, #NotAFanOfChina
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Old 08-13-2017, 02:21 AM   #213 (permalink)
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I guess if we can limit the big red buttons to food and beverage deliveries, then we'll be fine.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:48 AM   #214 (permalink)
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Old 08-13-2017, 06:15 AM   #215 (permalink)
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Missing one for Depend.
OK, I googled Depend (having made a vague guess and typed "Depend" and "Order"). Think of the ferriners*, yeah?

But yeah.

*on SLU. I have long abandoned the hope of Chump caring about ferriners.
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:23 AM   #216 (permalink)
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Think of the ferriners*, yeah?
Fabine, then...
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Old 08-13-2017, 10:37 AM   #217 (permalink)
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OK, I googled Depend (having made a vague guess and typed "Depend" and "Order"). Think of the ferriners*, yeah?

But yeah.

*on SLU. I have long abandoned the hope of Chump caring about ferriners.
Their tag line is "comfortable, reliable protection" and they sell products for both men and women that are normally associated with babies.
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Old 08-13-2017, 10:59 AM   #218 (permalink)
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:02 AM   #219 (permalink)
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:30 AM   #220 (permalink)
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depends.....
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Old 08-13-2017, 05:28 PM   #221 (permalink)
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I'm sure this officer -- who must be pretty senior -- will have ample information on which to base the decision, but I'm just wondering whose job it is,
Probably General John Hyten, who is commander of the US Strategic Command. That command both controls the missiles and gets the intelligence data so they can act on it in real time.

When a missile launch is detected, they don't have time to waste, so the people controlling, for example, the interceptor missiles, get told right away. The only thing they get from the "National Command Authority" (i.e. the President) is whether to execute a retaliatory strike, and which of the prepared options to use. But defending themselves or a civilian target they don't have to ask anyone's permission. If they are able to, they will.
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Old 08-13-2017, 05:38 PM   #222 (permalink)
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If you can get your hands on some MREs (Meals Ready to Eat), they're worth a try.
I actually tried some of those as part of my space systems work. A Mars mission might last three years, so we got hold of some three year old MREs to see just how palatable they would be, and if people could tolerate that kind of food for three years straight.

You *could*, but it would not be very desirable. That's part of why they have been conducting plant growth experiments on the Space Station:

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Old 08-13-2017, 07:12 PM   #223 (permalink)
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'If the U.S. and South Korea carry out strikes and try to overthrow the North Korean regime and change the political pattern of the Korean Peninsula, China will prevent them from doing so.'

Read more: China will stop America if it attacks North Korea first | Daily Mail Online



I hope that our country does not do a preemptive strike against North Korea and end up getting China involved just like the world saw happen in the 1950's.
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:18 PM   #224 (permalink)
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I hope that our country does not do a preemptive strike against North Korea and end up getting China involved just like the world saw happen in the 1950's.
there is no way the USA is going to launch any kind of preemptive strike against North Korea. The USA would retaliate tho, with overwhelming force if the North Korea regime was dumb enough to fire on any US asset, ally or territory

if anything were to affect regime change in North Korea then it would be a coordinated plan between USA, South Korea, North Korea and China to affect the reunification of Korea. Which I think all koreans would like to see happen, as I think would pretty much everyone else
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:44 PM   #225 (permalink)
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there is no way the USA is going to launch any kind of preemptive strike against North Korea. The USA would retaliate tho, with overwhelming force if the North Korea regime was dumb enough to fire on any US asset, ally or territory

if anything were to affect regime change in North Korea then it would be a coordinated plan between USA, South Korea, North Korea and China to affect the reunification of Korea. Which I think all koreans would like to see happen, as I think would pretty much everyone else
except china... there's that little detail.
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