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Old 08-12-2017, 10:34 AM   #176 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
This may be a stupid question, but how does this work at the sharp end, with the people who actually launch the missiles after the order has been issued?

The folks in Nevada, or wherever it is, receive an order from the President to fire nuclear missiles. It is not confirmed by the Secretary of Defense, so they may act on it only if they are being told to execute a retaliatory strike.

Who decides that it's a retaliatory strike so they should go ahead with it?


It's a serious question, Pandora. On Maggie's account of things, under some circumstances the Secretary of Defense's confirmation is is required and under other circumstances it isn't.

If, therefore, the President issues an order to launch nuclear missiles which the Secretary of Defense refuses to confirm, and the President sacks him and issues the order anyway, someone somewhere in the chain of command has to decide -- on Maggie's account -- whether the unconfirmed order is sufficient authorization to launch nuclear missile or whether to ignore the order, pending further instructions.

That's a very serious decision for someone to have to make, so presumably it's made by someone pretty senior. I wonder who that is, if things are as Maggie describes.

I have to say that Eku's account sounds a lot more plausible to me, and squares with what I'd read about the precautions Kissinger took during Watergate -- that is, because his serious doubts (shared by others) about Nixon's mental stability, particularly after he'd been drinking, he was able to persuade various key people that if they received an unexpected order to launch nuclear missiles, they should seek his or the Secretary of Defense's approval before passing it down the chain of command. This, however, was a completely unofficial ad hoc arrangement, caused by the very usual circumstances.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:45 AM   #177 (permalink)
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Now then, keep thinking about what that says and think. What happens if the Secretary of Defense doesn't confirm the launch order? What happens?
In that case, the President can go ahead with his order to launch.

The SecDef's approval is a desirable formality, not an absolute requirement. For example, if the next-in-line isn't available (death or such), the President needs no secondary approval at all. And as you said yourself, he can always fire the SecDef which basically gives the President sole authority in any case.

And FWIW, I didn't take your comments personally. I don't know your background and you didn't offer it, so I'm reserving my skepticism until/unless you explain how you feel you know so much with such certainty. In my case, I'm a voracious reader on the matter. I never claimed to have ultimate and unimpeachable knowledge. I've offered sources, and not just Vox, to support my position. You've only offered your opinion, which gives me license to dismiss it until provided with source of authority.

All this could have gone much better had you been more forthcoming instead of flouncing away. I'm always willing to be educated on something about which I'm not an expert. But it's your choice. Makes no nevermind.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:00 AM   #178 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
If, therefore, the President issues an order to launch nuclear missiles which the Secretary of Defense refuses to confirm, and the President sacks him and issues the order anyway, someone somewhere in the chain of command has to decide -- on Maggie's account -- whether the unconfirmed order is sufficient authorization to launch nuclear missile or whether to ignore the order, pending further instructions.
Certainly, there could be a top-level coup by cabinet members, but without the SecDef or other secondary command being present, the nuclear codes can be used and missiles launched.

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Old 08-12-2017, 11:22 AM   #179 (permalink)
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However, every cloud has a silver -- or, more likely, golden -- lining in Trump-world:

Quote:

President Trump on Friday assured the governor of Guam that the White House is “with you 1,000 percent” in the face of a threat from North Korea — and then told the governor that he’s becoming famous and predicted the attention would boost tourism “tenfold” in the U.S. territory.

Guam Gov. Eddie Baza Calvo (R) posted a video of his end of the call on Facebook, offering a candid glimpse of the dynamic between the two leaders.

[....]

Unprompted, Trump then offered this assessment: “Eddie, I have to tell you, you’ve become extremely famous. All over the world the world, they’re talking about Guam, and they’re talking about you, and I think — tourism, I can say this, your tourism, you’re going to go up like tenfold with the expenditure of no money, so I congratulate you. … It just looks like a beautiful place.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.210b0f35f65c
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:17 PM   #180 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post


It's a serious question, Pandora. On Maggie's account of things, under some circumstances the Secretary of Defense's confirmation is is required and under other circumstances it isn't.

If, therefore, the President issues an order to launch nuclear missiles which the Secretary of Defense refuses to confirm, and the President sacks him and issues the order anyway, someone somewhere in the chain of command has to decide -- on Maggie's account -- whether the unconfirmed order is sufficient authorization to launch nuclear missile or whether to ignore the order, pending further instructions.

That's a very serious decision for someone to have to make, so presumably it's made by someone pretty senior. I wonder who that is, if things are as Maggie describes.

I have to say that Eku's account sounds a lot more plausible to me, and squares with what I'd read about the precautions Kissinger took during Watergate -- that is, because his serious doubts (shared by others) about Nixon's mental stability, particularly after he'd been drinking, he was able to persuade various key people that if they received an unexpected order to launch nuclear missiles, they should seek his or the Secretary of Defense's approval before passing it down the chain of command. This, however, was a completely unofficial ad hoc arrangement, caused by the very usual circumstances.
I got a groan from PandoraB as well for asking Maggie where she got her info from.

I think a shrug is called for.

Having said that, I wonder what Trump's generals will do if, say, "precautions" seem appropriate.
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:57 PM   #181 (permalink)
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I was waiting for someone to go there, but I didn't figure it would be you. That is why I don't come into this forum much any more. There is always someone here that wants to start dragging people through the mud instead of simply asking a polite question.

You could have simply asked how I know this or where I got my information from? But you had to get personal, didn't you?

Now then, from the looks of it. I don't have to explain anything. It looks like you are working it out for yourselves.
The only reason I said anything is because instead of offering links to back up your claims you offered nothing except your own words. Repeatedly. Expecting others to just take your word for something isn't productive.

Had I posted my question as to how you know when I first wanted to you wouldn't have said anything different.

The claims were yours. YOU should have backed them up if you want people to take you seriously.
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:58 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Or you could have told us.

No need for specifics but it sort of helps, you know?

Or were you just spoiling for a fight?
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:05 PM   #183 (permalink)
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I miss those duck and cover drills from elementary school, and the civil defense ration crackers in the big tin.

You mean the drills that were basically to give kids some way they could feel in control of their fate because there is not much you can do in that situation.

As to the crackers, track down some military rations.
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:10 PM   #184 (permalink)
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Thermonuclear weapons have a fusion stage. It takes a smaller fission bomb to set them off. Geez, don't they teach nuclear physics in school any more?
I got Cs in quantum, cosmology and astrophysics were more my thing.

Besides which, that is just engineering. I would not know the state-of-the-art of our military if I had to answer it on pain of death.

edit: Arguments between theoretical scientists and experimental ones make star wars/star trek debates look tame.

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Old 08-12-2017, 01:13 PM   #185 (permalink)
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It's OK.

This pic is beyond STUPID, this is not how it works!
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:20 PM   #186 (permalink)
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This pic is beyond STUPID, this is not how it works!
I believe it's an attempt at humour, Ranma.
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:34 PM   #187 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranma Tardis View Post
This pic is beyond STUPID, this is not how it works!
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Originally Posted by Ariadne Korda View Post
I believe it's an attempt at humour, Ranma.
Be careful, you're talking to Ranma. About comedy.
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:35 PM   #188 (permalink)
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:40 PM   #189 (permalink)
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Be careful, you're talking to Ranma. About comedy.
Gosh yes, sorry.

Let me just add this... from here: Donald Trump presses a red button on his desk and a butler brings him a Coke | The Independent

"While there has been a great deal of speculation and consternation about the prospect of Donald Trump pressing the nuclear button, it turns out there is another button the President is privy to.

Mr Trump has a special wooden box on his desk in the Oval Office of the White House containing a single button which he has been using to order glasses of Coca-Cola.

The rectangular box is located on the Resolute Desk which Presidents have used for decades.

President Trump's penchant for the soda was revealed in his Associated Press interview inside the Oval Office ahead of his 100th day as President.
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:49 PM   #190 (permalink)
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I guess if we can limit the big red buttons to food and beverage deliveries, then we'll be fine.
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:20 PM   #191 (permalink)
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I guess if we can limit the big red buttons to food and beverage deliveries, then we'll be fine.
More evidence that he did not actually want to BE president (make decisions and stuff) but just win the prize. Maybe we can convince everyone on the planet to agree to call him the POTUS and meanwhile we retroactively roll back everything he has done since he declared (including getting rid of everyone he hired).
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:20 PM   #192 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ranma Tardis View Post
This pic is beyond STUPID, this is not how it works!
That's totally how it works.

The snake is spring-loaded and squeezed into the fake Pringles can. Pop the top and BOOM! SNAKE! Comedy gold.

I have seen it dozens of times and it never fails.

Wut.
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:59 PM   #193 (permalink)
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That's totally how it works.

The snake is spring-loaded and squeezed into the fake Pringles can. Pop the top and BOOM! SNAKE! Comedy gold.

I have seen it dozens of times and it never fails.

Wut.
It is not funny
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Old 08-12-2017, 03:03 PM   #194 (permalink)
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It is not funny
Actually, yes, it is.

I agree that the PresiDunce is, really, not funny but sometimes a little humour does help keep us sane.

Do feel free to argue, however, why it's bad that some of us use humour to deal with stuff (while taking it extremely seriously).
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Old 08-12-2017, 03:05 PM   #195 (permalink)
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It is not funny
Critics...
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Old 08-12-2017, 03:59 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:17 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:27 PM   #198 (permalink)
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Who decides that it's a retaliatory strike so they should go ahead with it?
That's what the whole military chain of command is for. There are infrared satellites whose job is to detect rocket launches, and there are also nuclear detection sensors on the GPS satellites which pick up the radiation from an explosion. Finally, there are all kinds of radars which can track missiles in flight. The combination lets the military say with certainty "this rocket launched from here, and delivered a warhead there".

That information gets sent up the chain of command to the Secretary of Defense or National Security Advisor, whoever is advising the President at the time, and back down as orders to whoever is in position to retaliate. I'm sure there are detailed plans for retaliation, they have had decades to work those out and gather intelligence on the NK military.
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:34 PM   #199 (permalink)
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You mean the drills that were basically to give kids some way they could feel in control of their fate because there is not much you can do in that situation.
I hope you realize I was joking about missing the civil defense drills. They were scary as fuck.
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Old 08-12-2017, 06:37 PM   #200 (permalink)
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OK I've consumed too much news these last few days but yesterday, one one source (CNN? Politico? Can't remember, sorry) there was a team on the streets in a large US city (again, not sure which and sorry again). They asked people to point to where North Korea is on a world map.

Well, I have no idea how many people they asked but from the segment, one guy got it right. ONE.

Others pointed to Canada, the Middle East, Eastern Europe, India... you get my drift. A LOT of them pointed to Canada or Russia.

I found it totally depressing.
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I was happy at least the punker in the misfits tee pointed more or less right at it.

And I spent a lot of time going WTF?!?!?! at my monitor.

Also, think it was a late night show - whichever one has Jimmy Fallon.
I think it was Jimmy Kimmel. That's the sort of thing he likes to do on his ABC's Jimmy Kimmel Live. In which case it would have been outside his studio in Hollywood.
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