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Old 07-11-2017, 01:05 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Don Jr was told Russia was helping Trump

Trump Jr. Was Told in Email of Russian Effort to Aid Campaign
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/u...change_article

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Donald Trump Jr. was told in an email that a meeting to obtain information damaging to presidential rival Hillary Clinton was connected to intelligence gathered by the Russian government to help elect his father, according to a report published in The New York Times on Monday.

The Times, citing multiple people with knowledge of the missive, said the email was sent by Rob Goldstone, a publicist who helped set up the meeting during the 2016 presidential campaign between Trump’s eldest son and Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya. The note reportedly said the information presented during the meeting would come from the Russian government.
So there it is. Trump Jr. receives an e-mail that the Russians are helping the Trump campaign and might have dirt on Hillary Clinton. Trump grabs Kushner and Manafort and they take the meeting. Is there any doubt he did not tell them what was in the e-mail? We now have a smoking gun, a direct link tying Trump's campaign, including its campaign manager, to the Russians.

What makes me sicks is that it will not matter. Don Jr will go all "Fredo Corleone" and be forced to take the fall. No one will do anything, unless maybe Mueller does something a year or so from now.

Why is this all coming out now?? This happened in June 2016. I want to know why these "multiple people with knowledge of the missive" did not speak up sooner when it actually might have made a difference.
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Old 07-11-2017, 01:11 AM   #2 (permalink)
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That sounds right except for Don Jr taking the fall. The orange one will do whatever it takes to protect his family.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:26 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
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My favourite comment from all this.

'There is someone dumber that Donald Trump. His name is also Donald Trump.'
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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oh god the stupid is so strong in this family.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:41 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Old 07-11-2017, 01:53 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I think Dump Truck would totally throw his kid under the bus to save his own ass. Besides, I doubt Dump Truck Jr will get more than a slap on the wrist from this.
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Old 07-11-2017, 01:54 PM   #8 (permalink)
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My question is why isin´t he being arested by the feds as we speak?

ETA: Investigated at least.
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Old 07-11-2017, 02:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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My question is why isin´t he being arested by the feds as we speak?

ETA: Investigated at least.
Mainly because at the time of the meeting, D.Trump Jr was not a government official (still isn't) and it's not illegal to make contact with foreign agents as long as you're not conspiring to commit an illegal act.

Where Mueller will look is whether there was actual sabotage of Clinton's campaign by using Russian information. Until there's solid evidence of that, law enforcement's hands are pretty much tied.
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Old 07-11-2017, 03:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau View Post
Mainly because at the time of the meeting, D.Trump Jr was not a government official (still isn't) and it's not illegal to make contact with foreign agents as long as you're not conspiring to commit an illegal act.

Where Mueller will look is whether there was actual sabotage of Clinton's campaign by using Russian information. Until there's solid evidence of that, law enforcement's hands are pretty much tied.
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/7/10/...-times-illegal

Quote:
“The emails are simply put damning as a legal matter,” explains Ryan Goodman, a former Defense Department special counsel and current editor of the legal site Just Security. “The text of the emails provide very clear evidence of participation in a scheme to involve the Russian government in federal election interference, in a form that is prohibited by federal criminal law.”

Jens David Ohlin, a law professor at Cornell University, is even blunter: “It’s a shocking admission of a criminal conspiracy.”

Trump Jr.‘s decision to take the meeting in and of itself likely violated campaign finance law, which does not require you to actually get anything useful from foreigners. In other words, the mere fact that Trump Jr. asked for information from a Russian national about Clinton might have constituted a federal crime.

“The law states that no person shall knowingly solicit or accept from a foreign national any contribution to a campaign of an item of value,” Goodman tells me. “There is now a clear case that Donald Trump Jr. has met all the elements of the law, which is a criminally enforced federal statute.”
And

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Mr. Futerfas certainly has his work cut out for him. So, too, to the attorneys representing Jared Kushner and former Trump campaign chair Paul Manafort, who attended the meeting and were CC’d on the crucial email. “The emails also directly implicate Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort, who are included on the entire email chain,” Goodman says.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:02 PM   #11 (permalink)
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“The emails are simply put damning as a legal matter,” explains Ryan Goodman, a former Defense Department special counsel and current editor of the legal site Just Security. “The text of the emails provide very clear evidence of participation in a scheme to involve the Russian government in federal election interference, in a form that is Prohibited by federal criminal law.”
As much as I desperately want Trump's gang thrown in prison, I still think we're about 1 or 2 steps away from actionable crimes. Conspiring isn't a crime if you're not a commiting a crime. So far, based on what Natalia Veselnitskaya has said (when not under oath), this falls just short of a criminal conspiracy no matter what my favorite news sources wish because there never was any actual dirt on Hillary that was given to Don Jr.

But we're closer than ever, and it keeps deepening and widening every week. Cross our fingers.
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Old 07-11-2017, 05:03 PM   #12 (permalink)
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EXCLUSIVE: Donald Trump Jr. Will Speak to Hannity About Meeting With Russian Lawyer | Fox News Insider

That's it, keep flapping your yap, Dumbshit Jr.
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Old 07-11-2017, 05:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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That's like taking a shit in a shit-filled trench to prove you didn't try to wipe your ass on the Constitution.
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Old 07-11-2017, 06:42 PM   #15 (permalink)
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The bar for intelligence is set very low in the Trump family:

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43 stunned reactions to Donald Trump Jr.'s damning emails
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Old 07-11-2017, 06:47 PM   #16 (permalink)
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But we're closer than ever, and it keeps deepening and widening every week. Cross our fingers.
It's kind of like the rediscovery of Pompeii. Keep digging, and you will eventually find there's a whole city down there. They haven't even gotten into the Russian Mafia and money laundering yet, but I bet they will, because it's all connected.
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Old 07-11-2017, 07:08 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau View Post
As much as I desperately want Trump's gang thrown in prison, I still think we're about 1 or 2 steps away from actionable crimes. Conspiring isn't a crime if you're not a commiting a crime. So far, based on what Natalia Veselnitskaya has said (when not under oath), this falls just short of a criminal conspiracy no matter what my favorite news sources wish because there never was any actual dirt on Hillary that was given to Don Jr.

But we're closer than ever, and it keeps deepening and widening every week. Cross our fingers.
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It is illegal for a person to solicit a contribution to a campaign from a foreign individual or entity. To solicit:

means to ask, request, or recommend, explicitly or implicitly, that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value. A solicitation is an oral or written communication that, construed as reasonably understood in the context in which it is made, contains a clear message asking, requesting, or recommending that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value. A solicitation may be made directly or indirectly. The context includes the conduct of persons involved in the communication. A solicitation does not include mere statements of political support or mere guidance as to the applicability of a particular law or regulation.
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Hard to see how there is not a serious case here of solicitation. Trump Jr. appears to have knowledge of the foreign source and is asking to see it. As I explained earlier, such information can be considered a “thing of value” for purposes of the campaign finance law. (Update: More on the meaning of “thing of value” here and here.)

It is also possible other laws were broken, such as the laws against coordinating with a foreign entity on an expenditure. There could also be related obstruction, racketeering, or conspiracy charges, but these are really outside my area of specialization and I cannot say.

But there’s a lot for prosecutors to sink their teeth into. Pretty close to the smoking gun people were looking for.
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Old 07-11-2017, 08:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Its more whether the people who need to do something about it, WILL do anything about it.

That said, I'm surprised Jr is still alive or allowed to roam free. Because he seems incapable of keeping his mouth shut. That he is says something for just how confident certain parties are, because at least one person involved in this whole mess is not an idiot at all, and is also ruthless as fuck.
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Old 07-11-2017, 08:49 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Hard to see how there is not a serious case here of solicitation. Trump Jr. appears to have knowledge of the foreign source and is asking to see it. As I explained earlier, such information can be considered a “thing of value” for purposes of the campaign finance law. (Update: More on the meaning of “thing of value” here and here.)
I like Krugman and I think he's generally got good points, But on the matter of solicitation neither Trump nor Kushner nor Manafort say they asked for the information - in fact, the Russian attorney claims she only wanted to see how the US sanctions could be removed, but neither Kushner nor Manafort were interested in that. Only Trump hinted that he thought the meeting was about taking down Hillary. That's why he took the meeting.

Ultimately, it's Mueller who will determine whether there's anything here other than a lot of rancid smoke. I've gotten my hopes up too often before to accept the excitement of my fellow liberals and progressives as gospel. I'm forcing myself to sit on my hands and wait. In my head, I'm chanting "Lock him up!" over and over but I'm not saying it out loud.
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Old 07-11-2017, 09:59 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Conspiracy can certainly be a crime whether nor not the crime is committed. If people discuss how they plan to murder someone they can be thrown into prison for it
This isn't about murder. It's about a political campaign looking for oppo research to help them win. In my view (again, not a lawyer), going after that info is not in itself a crime. Conspiring to gather it is not a crime. And in this case, they didn't get the information they wanted anyway.

Don Jr. has probably broken 100 other campaign laws in the last year. I'm just not sure this was one of them.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:05 PM   #21 (permalink)
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This isn't about murder. It's about a political campaign looking for oppo research to help them win. In my view (again, not a lawyer), going after that info is not in itself a crime. Conspiring to gather it is not a crime. And in this case, they didn't get the information they wanted anyway.

Don Jr. has probably broken 100 other campaign laws in the last year. I'm just not sure this was one of them.
I'm not a lawyer either but the law that I've seen repeatedly quoted is

Quote:
“The law states that no person shall knowingly solicit or accept from a foreign national any contribution to a campaign of an item of value,” Goodman tells me. “There is now a clear case that Donald Trump Jr. has met all the elements of the law, which is a criminally enforced federal statute.”
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/7/10/...-times-illegal

The argument is he was soliciting or hoping for the information, the fact that he received none possibly being irrelevant.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:18 PM   #22 (permalink)
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The argument is he was soliciting or hoping for the information, the fact that he received none possibly being irrelevant.
I'm interpreting "solicitation" as the act of instigating an exchange of money or information. From what I'm reading, Don didn't solicit, he accepted.

Maybe that would be just as bad except for the fact that he didn't actually get anything. To me, the bigger story here is that there really was communications between the Trumps and the Russians after over a year of denial-denial-denial.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:40 PM   #23 (permalink)
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If someone linked to the Russian government offers to give you info damning your opponent in the campaign for president, you call the FBI. You don't meet up with them to see what they've got.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:48 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I like how in his bizarre Twitter confession he mentions that he went there for Russian dirt on Hillary, and when the contact started talking about something else besides Clinton (i.e., adoptions), that was when he decided to walk out. Espionage is all gravy, but lobbying crosses the line dammit.
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Old 07-12-2017, 12:25 AM   #25 (permalink)
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If someone linked to the Russian government offers to give you info damning your opponent in the campaign for president, you call the FBI. You don't meet up with them to see what they've got.
That's what the Bush campaign did when they were offered dirt on Gore.
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