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Old 06-15-2017, 10:52 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Blame victims much? Maybe you should take up puppy kicking as well.
While I have taken great care not doing that, yet you are accusing me of blaming victims? WTF, really.

What I said is that when authorities are incompetent or inactive and your life is at stakes you have to take care of the matter yourself.
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:06 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:07 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Now, it's probably because these people were too respectful of authorities that didn't give a shit about them that they died.
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While I have taken great care not doing that, yet you are accusing me of blaming victims? WTF, really.

What I said is that when authorities are incompetent or inactive and your life is at stakes you have to take care of the matter yourself.
Yes, you totally fucking did. Right there. "Probably" doesn't undo the rest of the sentence.
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:11 AM   #54 (permalink)
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From your own post:



As I said, you are blaming the victim (the tenants). They paid the landlord for a safe space to stay and did not get that. I stand by that unless the English language has changed radically and I did not know about it.

Oh, and as you can guess from the spoilers .... yes, I count you as a troll at times.
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:31 AM   #55 (permalink)
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While I very much doubt that domestic fire extinguishers would have been much use after the fire took hold and started to spread from the apartment in which it started (and we don't even know if the tenant was in the apartment at the time), I think it's maybe worth pointing that many residents of Grenfell Tower will be reliant on state benefits, and would find it very difficult to afford the outlay on fire extinguishers and alarms, even if it is only a few pounds.
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:03 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Grenfell Tower: Tory minister declined to include sprinklers in fire safety rules as it could discourage house building
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:03 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I see Saint Theresa managed to turn up for a photo-op with fire chiefs, but didn't take the time to talk to any of the survivors. Funny how she's managing to make time to talk to the DUP this afternoon...
A photo op for photographers with telephoto lenses as reporters were kept as far away from her as the victims, aid workers and firemen who actually fought the fire.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:12 PM   #58 (permalink)
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The kinds of buildings that would be discouraged are the kind of buildings that shouldn't be built. Death traps.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:17 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Domestic smoke alarms would have been largely useless in a building of this size with a fire of this nature. They are almost always networked in residential tower blocks. So, if a smoke alarm sounds on floor 1 then the alarms will immediately sound on every other floor in the building. A 10 smoke alarm from B&Q isn't the same thing at all... but of course it's always wise to fit them in your homes anyway.

Who says the residents didn't have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers anyway? That's one hell of an assumption. Most Britons seem to have them these-days, even those who fit the socio-economic profile of tenants in this building.

Also, council tower blocks are typically designed to contain fires to a single corridor. A corridor usually contains no more than two flats but there are exceptions to this rule. The individual flat(s) and corridor are encased in a concrete shell with a fire door at the end and more fire doors separating each floor. So, if everybody in this building had *domestic* smoke alarms, most of them wouldn't have sounded until it was too late. Every fire door on the stairwell would need to be opened to let the smoke through.

The external retrofitting of insulation and cladding seems to have proven this building's downfall. The fire spread quickly from the outside-in - bursting windows as it climbed the outside of the building and igniting the furnishings inside. I suspect that if no cladding had been applied then this fire that started on floor two would have remained a fire on floor two until the fire brigade arrived and put it out.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:28 PM   #60 (permalink)
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What disturbs me the most in this story, is not that the others have done nothing, because it always happen. But that the people living there could organize themselves to protest, write a blog and take various actions to alert the authorities but they never ever thought of buying 10 bucks fire alarms or collect money for a few fire extinguishers.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:50 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Yes, you totally fucking did. Right there. "Probably" doesn't undo the rest of the sentence.
Specifically done here also:
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the people living there could organize themselves to protest, write a blog and take various actions to alert the authorities but they never ever thought of buying 10 bucks fire alarms or collect money for a few fire extinguishers.

When your own life is at stakes, you can take initiatives to protect yourself, others than asking for help,

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While I have taken great care not doing that, yet you are accusing me of blaming victims? WTF, really.

What I said is that when authorities are incompetent or inactive and your life is at stakes you have to take care of the matter yourself.
There's a difference between your life being at stake and taking measures to prevent your life being put at stake in the future. There's also a complete denial of what humans are incapable of doing individually. Every household having someone with fire extinguishers fighting a large building fire never would have done anything against this.

Your whole post can only be summarized as blaming the victims.
And nothing else.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:56 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Good to see I was not the only one to read that as victim-blaming.
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:05 PM   #63 (permalink)
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In the UK there are strict regulations about fire prevention in buildings and it is the landloard's responsibility to do this. Each flat or appartment is normally designed to contain a fire, if one breaks out in one living space. Something clearly went disasterously wrong here howver. Suggesting the tenants should have bought fire alarms or fire extinguishers when the housing association should already have done this is just not constructive at all.
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:18 PM   #64 (permalink)
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In the UK there are strict regulations about fire prevention in buildings and it is the landloard's responsibility to do this. Each flat or appartment is normally designed to contain a fire, if one breaks out in one living space. Something clearly went disasterously wrong here howver. Suggesting the tenants should have bought fire alarms or fire extinguishers when the housing association should already have done this is just not constructive at all.
Pretty much the same over here. Exact fire codes vary by jurisdiction but most fires that start in one apartment rarely go beyond there or possibly nearby units. Consuming an entire building points the finger squarely at the landlord because there is nothing an individual tenant can do about it.
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:22 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I see Saint Theresa managed to turn up for a photo-op with fire chiefs, but didn't take the time to talk to any of the survivors. Funny how she's managing to make time to talk to the DUP this afternoon...
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:25 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:32 PM   #67 (permalink)
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What disturbs me the most in this story, is not that the others have done nothing, because it always happen. But that the people living there could organize themselves to protest, write a blog and take various actions to alert the authorities but they never ever thought of buying 10 bucks fire alarms or collect money for a few fire extinguishers.

When your own life is at stakes, you can take initiatives to protect yourself, others than asking for help, specially when your calls are ignored.

This tragedy could have been avoided in more than one way. Now, it's probably because these people were too respectful of authorities that didn't give a shit about them that they died. I hope next time a similar problem arises, then the people will consider taking safety measures for themselves and their families when authorities are failing. Pay the alarms and send the bill to the responsible of the security.


Sure. Go ahead and do that in the US and see how fast you land in jail for defacing property that doesn't belong to you. You have to have permission from the property owner before you can even paint your apartment.
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:05 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Decorating and furnishing restrictions are pretty lax in council operated tower blocks like this. As long as you don't damage the interior you can usually do what you want and you won't be penalised financially when you leave. I doubt it was an issue at Grenfell Tower because chances are high that smoke alarms were already on ceilings of flats when they moved in. This Guardian article even mentions that "only smoke alarms in individual flats were working." The residents were asking for a communal fire and smoke alarm system. Ie. A linked system in corridors and stair wells.
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:17 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Decorating and furnishing restrictions are pretty lax in council operated tower blocks like this. As long as you don't damage the interior you can usually do what you want and you won't be penalised financially when you leave. I doubt it was an issue at Grenfell Tower because chances are high that smoke alarms were already on ceilings of flats when they moved in. This Guardian article even mentions that "only smoke alarms in individual flats were working." The residents were asking for a communal fire and smoke alarm system. Ie. A linked system in corridors and stair wells.
Putting a nail in a wall to hang a picture is damage. Putting holes in the ceiling or wall to screw a smoke alarm base into place is damage.


Smoke alarms may have been in place but did the building owners fulfill their responsibility to make sure they were in working condition with good batteries? That should be done before a tenant moves in and when they move out.

As a side note, with my hearing issues I have had to take down all smoke alarms in my apartment. I can't hear the high frequency alarm and it aggravates my tinnitus enormously. They literally deafen me. Add to that the fact that they were way too sensitive. Just steam from a boiling pot of water on the stove would set the damn things off. And there were originally four of them when only two were needed (by law) in a small 2 bedroom.
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:40 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Obviously it would be prudent to suspend use of this cladding until it's known whether it was a factor in causing the fire, but otherwise I don't really see how speculation without evidence gets us anywhere.
It's not as if it hasn't happened before, and there have been enquiries, coroner's recommendations and parliamentary committees aplenty. There are a number of fairly obvious precautionary steps which could be taken - stop using the cladding, make sure stairwells, vestibules and emergency access are all clear and well lit and doubtless others will come to mind. Given that this block had only had that cladding for a year, I don't think we can afford to wait for an inevitable slow-moving royal commission to reach a balanced conclusion and recommendations - the chance of another block going the same way looms too large.
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:44 PM   #71 (permalink)
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OK, let me be clearer.

* "Putting a nail in a wall to hang a picture is" absolutely fine in a council flat. It does not constitute damage.
* "Putting holes in the ceiling or wall to screw a smoke alarm base into place is," absolutely fine in a council flat. It does not constitute damage.

You could literally paint the walls of your council flat pink with giant white spots before moving out and you would not be billed for the redecorating that needs to be undertaken before new tenants move in.

Your second paragraph seems to imply that I was making excuses for the building's owner (the council). I wasn't. My whole reason for mentioning smoke alarms was to dismiss Twisted Pharaoh's weird expectations of tenants. To summarise that for you:

* Most - if not all - of them probably had working smoke alarms anyway. I'm certainly getting that impression from newspapers.
* Domestic smoke alarms in communal corridors two or three floors above the initial fire would have been about as useful as one of these. (If you hear them, it's probably already too late.)
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:57 PM   #72 (permalink)
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OK, let me be clearer.

* "Putting a nail in a wall to hang a picture is" absolutely fine in a council flat. It does not constitute damage.
* "Putting holes in the ceiling or wall to screw a smoke alarm base into place is," absolutely fine in a council flat. It does not constitute damage.

You could literally paint the walls of your council flat pink with giant white spots before moving out and you would not be billed for the redecorating that needs to be undertaken before new tenants move in.
I will reiterate. I am in the US not the UK. I am speaking only of how things are in the US.

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Your second paragraph seems to imply that I was making excuses for the building's owner (the council). I wasn't. My whole reason for mentioning smoke alarms was to dismiss Twisted Pharaoh's weird expectations of tenants. To summarise that for you:

* Most - if not all - of them probably had working smoke alarms anyway. I'm certainly getting that impression from newspapers.
* Domestic smoke alarms in communal corridors two or three floors above the initial fire would have been about as useful as one of these. (If you hear them, it's probably already too late.)
I asked a legitimate question that in no way, shape or form was an accusation of making excuses.

Your reply to Twisted had nothing to do with my reply to you. That portion of the conversation is between you and him. I am not a part of that conversation nor do I want to be.
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:58 PM   #73 (permalink)
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It's not as if it hasn't happened before, and there have been enquiries, coroner's recommendations and parliamentary committees aplenty. There are a number of fairly obvious precautionary steps which could be taken - stop using the cladding, make sure stairwells, vestibules and emergency access are all clear and well lit and doubtless others will come to mind. Given that this block had only had that cladding for a year, I don't think we can afford to wait for an inevitable slow-moving royal commission to reach a balanced conclusion and recommendations - the chance of another block going the same way looms too large.
They're holding a public inquiry, not a royal commission.

I said earlier that it would seem prudent to cease using the cladding until the inquiry reports, and the other steps you mention are basic good practice that the building managers should be attending to anyway, regardless of fire risks.

If that's all you mean, then no argument. All I'm saying is that I don't think it's a good idea to jump to conclusions that involve spending a lot of money on precautionary or remedial measures (as opposed to general good building management) without evidence as to what precautions and remedies are needed.
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:31 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:42 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Please use the quote button so people know who you are talking to. Thanks.
So many ways I could respond to this but I'm choosing not to escalate.

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I will reiterate. I am in the US not the UK. I am speaking only of how things are in the US.
This thread is about something that happened in the UK. Twisted couldn't understand why UK residents of a UK tower block didn't do a certain thing. I am aware that you said something like "try that in the US and this will be the consequence," and the gist of my response was "that's not a concern in this kind of building in the UK."


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Your reply to Twisted had nothing to do with my reply to you. That portion of the conversation is between you and him. I am not a part of that conversation nor do I want to be.
I didn't actually reply to Twisted. I replied to the thread and tried to discuss something he mentioned. I thought you were doing the same. Apparently not. Never mind.
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