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Old 06-14-2017, 11:34 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Heads need to roll for this.
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:27 PM   #27 (permalink)
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The work on the outside of the building sounds like the culprit. Apparently the building was covered in insulation and then clad. The cladding must meet fire regulations, but not the insulation. It isn't clear what kind of insulation was used but often polystyrene is used and is highly flammable.

There was only a single stairway in the building. It is not intended for evacuating the entire block. The standard approach taken by fire fighters is to contain the fire to a single apartment and only evacuate those in the immediate area. As such firemen were instructing residents to stay in their apartments, with no idea as they did it that the fire was spreading through the whole structure.
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:36 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Only a single stairway? What sort of building codes do you have there? My building is half that height and there are at least 3 on just my side of the building alone.
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:43 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:51 PM   #30 (permalink)
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The building refused to meet safety standards in an inspection in 2014. Substandard wiring.

The way the fire spread so rapidly certainly suggests an electrical fire.

The building had been plagued with power spikes causing appliances to short, another indicator of bad wiring.

Landlords and contractors need to do jail time for this.
More than the landlords and contractors, I think. I'd like to know how the appropriate authorities followed up on that citation, if they even did.
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:54 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Of course it seems people have lobbied for more effective fire regulations, i.e. retro fitting sprinklers during refurbishment. Tory government rejected the idea:

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The coroner's report into a 2009 blaze in London recommended building regulations be updated, and called for developers refurbishing high-rise blocks to be encouraged to install sprinkler systems.
But five years later, Mr Lewis told MPs: "We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation."
He said the Tory government had committed to being the first to reduce regulations nationwide, pledging a one in-two out rule.
He added: "The cost of fitting a fire sprinkler system may affect house building—something we want to encourage—so we must wait to see what impact that regulation has."
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:54 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Only a single stairway? What sort of building codes do you have there? My building is half that height and there are at least 3 on just my side of the building alone.
Single stairway, no alarm, no sprinklers. 1970's construction code. further culprits probably include cost cutting, subcontracting, and deregulation.
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Old 06-14-2017, 02:30 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Old 06-14-2017, 03:47 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Old 06-14-2017, 10:00 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Old 06-14-2017, 11:19 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:20 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Oh my God, that is absolutely horrifying! I have no words. Except: What the hell is that building made of? Paper and thermite? I've never seen a building like that go up so quickly and aggressively like that before! My prayers go out to everyone effected by this tragedy.
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:18 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:30 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Muslims awake for Ramadan helped in Grenfell Tower fire | Daily Mail Online

Wait, the Fail said something positive?
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Old 06-15-2017, 05:32 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:11 AM   #41 (permalink)
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So any more news on this? Between national news covering Donnie's latest and both local and national news covering the Alexandria shooting SLU was my main source of info about this yesterday.
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:28 AM   #42 (permalink)
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London fire: Death toll rises to 17 - BBC News

So sad, but this is the liklihood.

It's fucking sickening seeing the charred remains and the extent of the damage to the towerblock today in the pictures. It seems that people have been able to get up to the 20th floor on the inside, but with no knowledge as to who was in the building at the time, they're waiting on friends and relatives to contact hospitals and emrgency services to register missing people. it's going to take weeks to gather all the information...

...cost cutting... yet this fucking cost to life and the utter damage to emergency services and precious NHS resources plus not counting the emotional cost to everyone involved and the cost of the building itself all mounts up to more... way fucking more than the costs saved! IT's FUCKING DISGUSTING!!

I hate politics and politicians right now. After a general election to hear how government cuts are likely to blame this is so maddening on so many levels. No party can hold their head up over this as local government is as much to blame here and not just RBK&C. these blocks exist all over the country and the world... enough is enough!

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Old 06-15-2017, 06:29 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Well, I asked for it.
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:16 AM   #44 (permalink)
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What disturbs me the most in this story, is not that the others have done nothing, because it always happen. But that the people living there could organize themselves to protest, write a blog and take various actions to alert the authorities but they never ever thought of buying 10 bucks fire alarms or collect money for a few fire extinguishers.

When your own life is at stakes, you can take initiatives to protect yourself, others than asking for help, specially when your calls are ignored.

This tragedy could have been avoided in more than one way. Now, it's probably because these people were too respectful of authorities that didn't give a shit about them that they died. I hope next time a similar problem arises, then the people will consider taking safety measures for themselves and their families when authorities are failing. Pay the alarms and send the bill to the responsible of the security.
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Old 06-15-2017, 10:14 AM   #45 (permalink)
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What disturbs me the most in this story, is not that the others have done nothing, because it always happen. But that the people living there could organize themselves to protest, write a blog and take various actions to alert the authorities but they never ever thought of buying 10 bucks fire alarms or collect money for a few fire extinguishers.

When your own life is at stakes, you can take initiatives to protect yourself, others than asking for help, specially when your calls are ignored.

This tragedy could have been avoided in more than one way. Now, it's probably because these people were too respectful of authorities that didn't give a shit about them that they died. I hope next time a similar problem arises, then the people will consider taking safety measures for themselves and their families when authorities are failing. Pay the alarms and send the bill to the responsible of the security.
As I understand it, they haven't even started analysing the cause of the fire, though the government have just announced a full public inquiry. This will doubtless hear evidence for several weeks, if not months, and then produce a full report.

It might, therefore, be wiser to hold off speculating about what caused the fire and how it might have been avoided until we actually have some evidence on which to base our speculations (and, indeed, access to the professional expertise of fire investigators and fire safety officers).

However, I do note from the report that
Quote:
Concerns have also been raised about fire alarms not going off and the lack of sprinklers.
It is still possible to build tall buildings without sprinklers, said Russ Timpson of the Tall Buildings Fire Safety Network, but he expected regulations might change soon.

Overseas colleagues are "staggered" when they hear tall buildings are built in the UK with a single staircase, he added.
Roy Wilsher, chair of the National Fire Chiefs Council, said that if the fire spread up the outside of the tower, sprinklers might not have made a difference.

Design and regulations for such tower blocks mean fire should be contained in a single flat, he said. "Clearly something's gone wrong in this case."
That is, when a fire breaks out in one of these tower blocks, the expectation is that it will remain confined to the particular flat. For whatever reason that didn't happen in this case, with catastrophic results, and one obvious question for the investigators to address is whether the recently-applied cosmetic cladding on the building spread the fire. If it did, then obviously no amount of domestic fire extinguishers in the individual apartments would have done much good.

To my mind, though, speculation at this stage is both pointless and premature.
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Old 06-15-2017, 10:17 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I see Saint Theresa managed to turn up for a photo-op with fire chiefs, but didn't take the time to talk to any of the survivors. Funny how she's managing to make time to talk to the DUP this afternoon...
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Old 06-15-2017, 10:19 AM   #47 (permalink)
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To my mind, though, speculation at this stage is both pointless and premature.
OTOH, Informed speculation might just save a few lives if it prevents a recurrence before the whitewash report is produced.
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Old 06-15-2017, 10:19 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Blame victims much? Maybe you should take up puppy kicking as well.

I am heavily involved in our local tenant organization so a few facts for you:

1) Landlord/tenant disputes often get kicked to a special court for those cases. Not only are landlords more familiar with that court they often have high-paid lawyers that are as well. Oh, and that is if your court is not favorable to the landlords (many are, even though they should be impartial).

2) Routine maintenance (and putting in fire alarms counts) is the responsibility of the landlord. In fact, a tenant who takes it on themselves to fix something can get sued by the landlord.

3) Respectful of authority? WTF is that even about???????

Face it. This was basically a deathtrap. That is not the fault of the people who live there and pay rent but the landlord, who assumes the responsibility to follow the law.
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Old 06-15-2017, 10:41 AM   #49 (permalink)
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collect money for a few fire extinguishers
Alarms are a building system. Installing a battery alarm tells you if your apartment, or possibly the one next to it, is on fire. Whole building alarm systems tell you that there is a fire in the building, and they alert the first responders automatically.

Extinguishers do two things in this type of fire: jack, and shit. When the cheap metal siding on a building is acting as a chimney to spread the flames from the substandard insulation up twenty floors, aiming at the base of the fire is not really an option. This fire spread quickly, and got big very fast. Hand-held extinguishers probably had a window of under a minute or so to stop this fire, assuming someone was in the right place at the right time. They are for small, contained fires, not for flames spreading through the service and structure of whole building. A sprinkler system, on the other hand, triggers automatically, and can make the rest of the building wet so that the fire can not spread as fast, possibly either containing it (not likely, as the flames appear to have traveled along the outside surfaces of the building where few people install sprinklers) or at the very least given more time for an orderly evacuation.
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Old 06-15-2017, 10:47 AM   #50 (permalink)
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OTOH, Informed speculation might just save a few lives if it prevents a recurrence before the whitewash report is produced.
Obviously it would be prudent to suspend use of this cladding until it's known whether it was a factor in causing the fire, but otherwise I don't really see how speculation without evidence gets us anywhere.
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