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Old 04-12-2017, 06:46 AM   #51 (permalink)
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An embassy abroad. Unfortunate those state department cuts, but if things remain consistent, the next attack on one makes the Secretary of State a literal murderer.
However they will find some way to blame Clinton.
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:34 AM   #52 (permalink)
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...et-north-korea

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Japan is preparing to send several warships to join a US aircraft carrier strike group heading for the Korean peninsula, in a show of force designed to deter North Korea from conducting further missile and nuclear tests.

Citing two well-placed sources who spoke on condition of anonymity, Reuters and the Kyodo news agency said several destroyers from Japan’s maritime self-defence forces would join the USS Carl Vinson and its battle group as it enters the East China Sea.
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Old 04-12-2017, 08:53 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Is it bad I'm translating this is 'without letting N Korea know so that we waste yet more money doing little good [or bad]'.

Though, I'm against bombing, I'm also against wasting -our- money so he can get praise from idiots.
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:18 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Bombing city blocks is, nowadays, pretty much unlawful under all circumstances anyway, precisely because it's indiscriminate and puts civilians at risk (though, of course, it was legal during WW2, though chemical weapons weren't).

However, that doesn't address the question of why chemical weapons, in general, are banned on the battlefield. It seems to me that the potential cruelty of the weapons isn't a factor here, since it's unlawful to use on the battlefield (for example) irritant gasses that most countries consider perfectly acceptable for civilian crowd control.

Nor am I particularly convinced by the argument that chemical weapons are so much more lethal or less painful than conventional weapons. Obviously a conventional fragmentation or incendiary bomb is certainly capable of inflicting long-term devastating injuries or causing a slow and painful death. Whether it does or not in any particular case is a matter of complete chance. It seems to me difficult to maintain any principled argument that such weapons are inherently less cruel or indiscriminate than chemical weapons.

I'm not, of course, arguing that chemical weapons should be allowed. I am just saying that I don't think that the case for banning them is particularly logical, and that's before we've even started to consider the exemption for both tactical and strategic nuclear weapons.
Well, first, war is not logical. If you are looking for a logical and consistent framework for waging war then the only solution is to not wage war.

Aside from war itself being a problem, part of the issue is historical which is difficult to rectify with modern weaponry. I doubt that the original framers of the various conventions on war fighting could have conceived of a time when a single, small jet could carry the same amount of munitions that a B-17 could carry, and the B-17 would have been difficult to imagine at the time of the first Hague Convention. Also, people are still struggling to come to grips with the use of small calibre rifles that fire rounds designed to splinter and fragment. Having said that chemical weapons are still different from many high explosive munitions. (Although there is a significant caveat with respect to mines, noted below.)

First, chemical weapons are indiscriminant in ways beyond those of explosive ordinance. Even when they deploy when and where they are supposed to be factors such as weather play an important role in how they are dispersed. Everything down wind and down stream are impacted, and the potential for impacting civilian and your own forces is high. They are also indiscriminate in time. Blistering and blood agents can be persistent over very long time periods and cause severe injuries and deaths for a long time after they are deployed.

Second, some of them, most notably nerve agents, are deployed because of the immediate terror and panic they can induce. They are used to demoralize the people who are not immediately exposed.

Third, and this helps reinforce the second item, they create situations in which it may not be possible to render aid to their victims. If someone is exposed to a chemical agent you cannot provide aid to them until a number of precautions are made. Large areas have to be demarcated and a number of actions have to be undertaken when a chemical agent is used, and a set of complicated procedures have to be implemented.

That includes cleaning equipment but also providing aid to injured people. Casualties have to be treated for both immediate medical emergencies (airway, breathing, and circulation) but have to simultaneously be treated for the chemical exposure. The people who do this also have to take a number of precautions that delay and make it difficult to provide necessary aid. Patients then have to go through a number of difficult steps in order to be properly decontaminated before they can receive proper medical treatment. This has to take place on the edge of the contamination zone, and if a patient is not properly decontaminated and is then placed in a medical area deemed clean, that whole area and the people in it is then contaminated and the demarcation line gets moved. Then equipment and people have to go through the whole procedure again. It is a mess.

(The agents used in Syria recently were likely designed to act quickly but also decay quickly but the initial responders had to face a difficult decision.)

The important caveat, though, is most of the things I mentioned above also apply to mines. The way modern mines work they bring up many of the exact same issues. It is pretty well accepted that the use of mines is a real problem. Unfortunately, they have been a part of war for so long nobody wants to give them up, and their historical use makes it difficult for people to imagine waging war without them.

Edit to add: As noted by Wanda Belinda below - a large number of states have signed the Ottawa treaty, but that only applies to one particular type of mine.
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:24 AM   #55 (permalink)
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It is pretty well accepted that the use of mines is a real problem. Unfortunately, they have been a part of war for so long nobody wants to give them up, and their historical use makes it difficult for people to imagine waging war without them.
The US, Russia, China and 32 other countries don't want to give them up. 162 countries do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:24 AM   #56 (permalink)
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If North Korea is bombed a nuclear strike vs USA is possible. If they can't reach America then they will target SK or Japan. Don't be fooled by the failed missile launch, it's a deceitful maneuver.
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:06 AM   #57 (permalink)
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[...]
The important caveat, though, is most of the things I mentioned above also apply to mines. The way modern mines work they bring up many of the exact same issues. It is pretty well accepted that the use of mines is a real problem. Unfortunately, they have been a part of war for so long nobody wants to give them up, and their historical use makes it difficult for people to imagine waging war without them.
the big one in favor of mines is that they stay where you put them, unfortunately that's also that biggest thing against them since they tend to outlast everything else.
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:32 AM   #58 (permalink)
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the big one in favor of mines is that they stay where you put them, unfortunately that's also that biggest thing against them since they tend to outlast everything else.
The other problem is the use of cluster mines, which scatter the little explosives - some of which look like children's toys - at random over an area, making later cleanup especially tedious and inexact.

How US Cluster Bombs Banned by Most Countries Ended Up in Yemen

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On April 29, three adults and a child came across some fist-sized canisters on the ground outside of Baqim, a Yemeni town controlled by Houthi rebels. To the 10-year-old boy among them, they "looked like toys." Out of curiosity, they picked up the cannisters, which then exploded. All four were injured; a nurse told Human Rights Watch that the child was wounded in the stomach, and one of the adults received injuries to his face, torso, thigh, and crotch. Considering the kind of damage that cluster-bomb submunitions can cause, they're lucky to still be alive.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:32 PM   #59 (permalink)
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The other problem is the use of cluster mines, which scatter the little explosives - some of which look like children's toys - at random over an area, making later cleanup especially tedious and inexact.
Not a particularly new weapon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_Bomb
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Old 04-18-2017, 03:00 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Thank goodness Trump's failure at foreign policy is only rivaled by North Korea's inability to get so much as bottle rocket into the air. A lot of lives are at stake, and it seems only complete stupidity on both sides may save us.
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Old 04-18-2017, 11:16 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Despite talk of a military strike, Trump’s ‘armada’ actually sailed away from Korea

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The news that the ships were not where everyone assumed them to be was greeted with some glee in the Chinese media Tuesday.
“Tricked badly!” the Global Times exulted on its social media account. “None of the U.S. aircraft carriers that South Korea is desperately waiting for has come!”
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Old 04-18-2017, 01:01 PM   #62 (permalink)
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So, who guessed that we'd start World War III within the first hundred days?
Ironically, a lot of people said that if Clinton were to be president, she would start WW III (with Russia) and that is why they wouldn't vote for her. Yet here we are wondering if the angry orange is going to trigger WW III with N Korea....
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Old 04-18-2017, 01:37 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Ironically, a lot of people said that if Clinton were to be president, she would start WW III (with Russia) and that is why they wouldn't vote for her. Yet here we are wondering if the angry orange is going to trigger WW III with N Korea....
Judging from word on the street here that's because Clinton seemed likely to try and stand up to Putin whereas Trump would rather be in bed with him.

That is, Korea won't be WWIII because we'll just roll over them with a few casualties and those mostly in foreign countries to boot whereas confrontation with Russia might in fact have consequences for us.

Given history it's not really a surprise. We're rather braver with other people's lives than our own. I'll admit to a blind spot here. I never thought I'd see TN go from patriots to appeasers. Shoulda known better, I guess.
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Old 04-18-2017, 01:43 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Judging from word on the street here that's because Clinton seemed likely to try and stand up to Putin whereas Trump would rather be in bed with him.

That is, Korea won't be WWIII because we'll just roll over them with a few casualties and those mostly in foreign countries to boot whereas confrontation with Russia might in fact have consequences for us.

Given history it's not really a surprise. We're rather braver with other people's lives than our own. I'll admit to a blind spot here. I never thought I'd see TN go from patriots to appeasers. Shoulda known better, I guess.
Regardless, the exact term that someone told me (sadly it was even from a trans woman that I heard it for the first time) was that Hillary was a "warmonger".
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Old 04-18-2017, 02:01 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gabriell Anatra View Post
Judging from word on the street here that's because Clinton seemed likely to try and stand up to Putin whereas Trump would rather be in bed with him.

That is, Korea won't be WWIII because we'll just roll over them with a few casualties and those mostly in foreign countries to boot whereas confrontation with Russia might in fact have consequences for us.

Given history it's not really a surprise. We're rather braver with other people's lives than our own. I'll admit to a blind spot here. I never thought I'd see TN go from patriots to appeasers. Shoulda known better, I guess.
Attacking NK is a direct affront to China, regardless of our ability to steamroll them militarily. And if NK does strike SK and/or Japan with Nukes in retaliation, that would be plenty to set off a chain of events that could lead to WWIII. And lets just say the international community would be none too happy with us.
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Old 04-18-2017, 03:23 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Attacking NK is a direct affront to China, regardless of our ability to steamroll them militarily. And if NK does strike SK and/or Japan with Nukes in retaliation, that would be plenty to set off a chain of events that could lead to WWIII. And lets just say the international community would be none too happy with us.
Yep. And just to refresh memories, we "steamrolled" the Iraqi army in 2003 in 21 days, as well. But then the regulars scattered into the population and thousands of guerillas formed up. The official body count in 2016 - 13 years later - just for US personnel was about 4,200, with about 32,000 wounded.

So "steamrolling" third-world country militaries isn't always the spreadsheet exercise we think it will be.
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Old 04-18-2017, 04:30 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Yep. And just to refresh memories, we "steamrolled" the Iraqi army in 2003 in 21 days, as well. But then the regulars scattered into the population and thousands of guerillas formed up. The official body count in 2016 - 13 years later - just for US personnel was about 4,200, with about 32,000 wounded.

So "steamrolling" third-world country militaries isn't always the spreadsheet exercise we think it will be.
I'm sure the military officials and military contractors are creaming their pants already at the prospects.

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Old 04-18-2017, 11:45 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Hand of U.S. Leaves North Korea’s Missile Program Shaken | NYT

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When a North Korean missile test went awry on Sunday, blowing up seconds after liftoff, there were immediate suspicions that a United States program to sabotage the test flights had struck again. The odds seem highly likely: Eighty-eight percent of the launches of the North’s most threatening missiles have self-destructed since the covert American program was accelerated three years ago.

But even inside the United States Cyber Command and the National Security Agency, where the operation is centered, it is nearly impossible to tell if any individual launch is the victim of a new, innovative approach to foil North Korean missiles with cyber and electronic strikes.

Bad welding, bad parts, bad engineering and bad luck can all play a role in such failures — as it did in the United States’ own missile program, particularly in its early days. And it would require a near impossible degree of forensic investigation to figure out an exact cause, given that the failed North Korean missiles tend to explode, disintegrate in midair and plunge in fragments into faraway seas.

But this much is clear, experts say: The existence of the American program, and whatever it has contributed to North Korea’s remarkable string of troubles, appears to have shaken Pyongyang and led to an internal spyhunt as well as innovative ways to defeat a wide array of enemy cyberstrikes.

By all accounts, the program that President Barack Obama stepped up in 2014 has been adopted with enthusiasm by the Trump administration. President Trump’s national security aides are eagerly hoping that the Chinese, among others, will get North Korea to freeze or reverse its program. Yet they have no compunctions about using this new class of weapon against missile tests that the United Nations has already prohibited.
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Old 04-18-2017, 11:54 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Ironically, a lot of people said that if Clinton were to be president, she would start WW III (with Russia) and that is why they wouldn't vote for her. Yet here we are wondering if the angry orange is going to trigger WW III with N Korea....
Yeah, Hillary, Donald both seem to love war. It's sad.
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Old 04-19-2017, 08:11 AM   #70 (permalink)
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The US said this aircraft carrier was near North Korea. Turns out it was 3,500 miles away.

Ww3 will start not from a bomb we sent but someone taking trumps lies seriously.

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On April 9 — nine days ago — the Trump administration announced that it was sending an aircraft carrier and four accompanying vessels to Korean waters. The strike group was supposed to be doing exercises near Australia, but the administration was diverting it in anticipation of a possible North Korean missile test. The scary implication: The US was putting its warships in place in preparation for a possible strike on North Korea.
Except it turns out there was a bit of an oopsie: Despite Trump’s boast last week that he was “sending an armada” to North Korea, as of Saturday, the carrier group in question was still hanging out with the Australian navy off the coast of Indonesia — 3,500 miles from North Korea.
We know this because the Navy told us. On Saturday, as Defense News’s Christopher Cavas reports, the US Navy publicly released photos of the USS Carl Vinson, the aircraft carrier in said carrier strike group, going through Indonesia’s Sunda Strait. Cavas called up Defense Department officials, who told him that the Vinson had indeed been in Indonesian waters that day. A subsequent piece by the New York Times, released on Tuesday afternoon, backed up Cavas’s work.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:26 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:49 PM   #72 (permalink)
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This just in: Navy armada that was supposed to be heading towards N. Korea actually in Indonesia - Trump blames "Bermuda Triangle".
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Old 04-19-2017, 01:47 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Attacking NK is a direct affront to China[...]
While I'm sure China would make a lot of noise over a US (or US supported) strike on NK, and might even use it as an excuse to lash out at local US allies, the reality is that China has had enough of NK's shit, only treats them as allied on paper for the veneer of china being the local superpower. short of a nuclear strike in response to NK's misbehavior, china would be just as happy to let them get pummeled and soak up humannitarian PR. The last thing china wants is for NK to launch a nuke, as that endangers them, and pretty much guarantees they'd have to come down on NK themselves.

everyone seems to think the US is the one with vested interest in sabotaging NK's efforts, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out it's actually china leading that charge. in fact, I'd bet money on it.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:08 PM   #74 (permalink)
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The US said this aircraft carrier was near North Korea. Turns out it was 3,500 miles away.

Ww3 will start not from a bomb we sent but someone taking trumps lies seriously.
If he's done that on purpose it's a very smart move actually.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:45 PM   #75 (permalink)
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The US said this aircraft carrier was near North Korea. Turns out it was 3,500 miles away.

Ww3 will start not from a bomb we sent but someone taking trumps lies seriously.
Granted, they weren't where Trump said they'd be; but, it's worth noting that a nuclear aircraft carrier can cover 3500 miles surprisingly quickly.
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