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Old 02-05-2017, 08:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Should Dems let Gorsuch sink or swim?

How do you feel Democrats in the Senate should handle the nomination of Gorsuch to the Supreme Court. One thing I am certain of, is that they should give him a hearing, which is more than the GOP was willing to do for Merrick Garland.

After that, I am sort of conflicted. Do the Democrats deny Garland with a filibuster and take the chance that McConnel will get rid of it and let Gorsuch get approved anyway?

Or do the Democrats approve Gorsuch and let one right winger replace another right winger on the court, pretty much maintaining the status quo? More than likely, the Senate will have to replace Kennedy and Ginsburg before Trump's (or Pence's) term is finished. Should they save their refusal to seat a judge for those vacancies when much more will be at stake than Scalia's seat, or should they just dig in and try to block every single nominee?

I am beginning to lean towards the latter. It gives Democrats the high ground, being ale to make the claim that they performed their duty when the GOP wouldn't, and it gives them more leverage when an opening or openings pop up that will have much more significance than
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Old 02-05-2017, 09:40 AM   #2 (permalink)
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If Trump had normal sized hands and a dick bigger than a toothpick, he would have resubmitted Merrick Garland.

Give Gorsuch the same treatment they gave Garland. They deserve nothing less.
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Old 02-05-2017, 09:53 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I'm ambivalent.

I can see a logic in letting him by and in fighting him too.
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:27 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Deny the Republicans this win. The precedent should not be set that it is okay to steal a Supreme Court seat.

Forget the high ground. I reject that argument entirely, and resent it being put in those terms. It's not high ground to to lay down and show your belly when you are dealing with this type of treachery and threat to the integrity of our system of Supreme Court nomination. The high ground is to stand up and fight it.

This is a potential 30-40 year change on the court, and honestly it is our duty to protect it. This is too important to the future of our country for the Democrats to cede.

Prior to the election, members of the Heritage Foundation and the Federalist Society were advocating that the Republicans should deny HRC that choice for her entire tenure, should she have been elected. That is how determined they are and were to get this seat. Perhaps we could show a bit of spine, for once, for the future of everyone who will be affected by a sharp turn to the right on the court.
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:38 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I have agreed with Free's post, but I haven't a clue as to what you're all going on about.
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Old 02-05-2017, 11:26 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm good with them completely obstructing this theft of a Supreme Court seat.
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Old 02-05-2017, 12:13 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If the Democrats filibuster this nomination, they'll just have to do it over and over again every few months, until the Republicans remove the filibuster for Supreme Court nominations. Afer several filibusters, there would probably be good public support for ending them.

Perhaps it's better for Democrats to wait for the next nomination, if it occurs some years from now, while the Republicans still hold the Senate and White House. If this happens close to the next election, the Republicans may be reluctant to eliminate the filibuster, especially if it looks like they will lose the Senate.
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Old 02-05-2017, 01:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The only thing to determine it should be strategy, fuck, the high road, fuck sending a message, fuck anything but the determination of long term damage.
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Old 02-05-2017, 01:58 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Part of the reason we've gotten to this mess is that for years now, the Dems have been trying to take the high ground and meet in the middle, with the repubs constantly moving the line further right. It has to stop somewhere, and now looks like a really, really good time to do so.
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Old 02-05-2017, 02:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Fight against his nomination as strongly as possible.
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:46 PM   #11 (permalink)
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The Democrats should bring in an "Alternative Candidate", Judge James Robart of Seattle, the one who trashed the Trump's immigration EO. I mean, he was a Bush appointee, so the Republican's shouldn't have a problem, right?

Mainly, though, I want to see Trump's head explode.
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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We are more or less in this whole mess because we keep trying to take the high ground and be reasonable and fair. The opposition will never meet us half way, they have zero interest in being fair, and will continue to use every dirty trick in the book. Fight till there actually IS some compromise worth considering.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:53 PM   #13 (permalink)
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This, "I am sick of taking the high ground" is all well and good, but just remember that the result will be that McConnell will simply be forced to kill the filibuster and put Gorsuch on anyway. Then, unless they can somehow win in to 2018 elections, their will be nothing to stop the GOP from appointing 1, possibly two more right wing judges, tilting the court drastically for decades (replacing Kennedy and Ginsburg). That just seems like an awful lot of damage to make a point.

Currently, there are 44 Obama nominees for the district court and seven for the appeals court sitting in limbo. Their are over 90 vacancies in the federal judiciary. I could live with Senate reaching and agreement where most, if not all those judges are approved, and in return the Democrats agree to give Gorsuch a vote with no filibuster.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Then, unless they can somehow win in to 2018 elections, their will be nothing to stop the GOP from appointing 1, possibly two more right wing judges, tilting the court drastically for decades (replacing Kennedy and Ginsburg). That just seems like an awful lot of damage to make a point.
They will do that anyway, and then you will be telling us to allow them to appoint them, as well.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I hear you, Soda, but here's the thing: constantly doing the same thing expecting change is insanity. And we're in the this game trying to stay as sane as possible.

So yeah, if someone keeps slapping your hand away every time you extend it, it's got to mean that they don't intend to play nice, at all.

Sure, the Republicans will whine about it, but hey, it only makes them look more and more like toddlers (well, moreso than usual), so, can't be bothered trying to be friends with someone who doesn't wanna be friends.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:33 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Obstruct everything. I'm prepared to pay the same price for it as the GOP did, which namely was winning everything.

But if they do give him a hearing, the very first question should be is, "Was it unconstitutional for Republicans to block Merrick Garland?"

If he says no, it legitimizes Democrats doing the same.

If he says yes, it paints the Republicans as unconstitutional.
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:58 PM   #17 (permalink)
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"Playing nice" has gotten the left nowhere. It's time to start pushing back. Might as well start here. The modern right only responds to shows of strength.
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:11 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Look, they either pull the nuclear option now or later. So what difference does it make, they can do that at any time, no matter when the democrats decided to fillibuster.

On this, rejection IS the high ground. Allowing them to steal a Supreme Court seat is a crime and will set a precedent that is the beginning of the end, really, the whole process will be meaningless if this is how we do business.

They must fight this or be complicit with a crime against our democratic system. It's not bad enough they stole the election, we are going to lay down and let them steal everything else? Fuck that. If we are going down either way, do it where it means something and they are entirely in the right.
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Old 02-06-2017, 02:59 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Sorry, Soda, but most of the Democratic base is fed up with the "high road" and are ready to primary any Senate or Congressional Dems who aren't willing to play Hardball. I think the march on Chuck Schumer's home showed that.

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Old 02-06-2017, 04:00 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I don't see what Soda suggests as being about taking the high ground, but about hardball strategy. If I were king, the Dems would "extreme vet" Gorsuch, put him on the record for every damning decision, put him on the record on constitutional questions like was mentioned (was it unconstitutional to block Obama's SCOTUS nominee?), and in every other way squeeze him to reveal his judicial POV. Then confirm him, because it's a like-for-like trade, and "live to fight another day" on Kennedy and Ginsburg. For them, go to the mat.

Sounds like typical political strategy, to me. If we can paint ourselves as taking the high ground as well, sure - ride that for all it is worth. We can feel like this is war, we can call it war, but this is not war. This is politics and as long as politics is possible that is how it should be "fought".

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Old 02-06-2017, 04:40 PM   #21 (permalink)
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the seat was already stolen, it's gone, there is no getting it back. the ONLY thing to do right now is decide whether this idiot being proposed is worse than the idiot in line behind him.
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Old 02-06-2017, 05:08 PM   #22 (permalink)
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They will do that anyway, and then you will be telling us to allow them to appoint them, as well.
Sorry, but that is far from true. Their are options the Democrats can take, much like the Bork nomination with Reagan. The problem is that by being in the minority, they will only get one swing of the bat. So, the only question here is who do you take out? You get to deny one. Do you make a statement up front and take out Gorsuch who will be about the same as the judge he replaces, or do you take out the next guy will will greatly shift the court to the right? Either option has its negatives and its rewards.
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:35 PM   #23 (permalink)
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You are acting like the fillibuster will "work" if used in another circumstance. It doesn't work that way. If the Republicans want to go nuclear, they will, end of story. It doesn't make a difference other than this is a lifetime appointment, unlike any of his cabinet picks. If we are going to call their bluff, I truly cannot imagine a more important issue. Trump could wind up impeached and in jail and 20 years later we would still be living with his Supreme Court Seat. If they back down, what sense does it make to choose someone "worse"? Why? They can ram through anyone they please right now. And since when does Trump chose people who will be popular, in what universe?? They gave him this guy because he specifically asked for a Scalia clone, not because he would be appealing to anyone else, certainly not for the Democrats.
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:07 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Sorry, but that is far from true. Their are options the Democrats can take, much like the Bork nomination with Reagan. The problem is that by being in the minority, they will only get one swing of the bat.
There is no bat. All they can do right now is fight with the umpires, endlessly. That's it.
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Old 02-07-2017, 07:48 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Sorry, but that is far from true. Their are options the Democrats can take, much like the Bork nomination with Reagan. The problem is that by being in the minority, they will only get one swing of the bat. So, the only question here is who do you take out? You get to deny one. Do you make a statement up front and take out Gorsuch who will be about the same as the judge he replaces, or do you take out the next guy will will greatly shift the court to the right? Either option has its negatives and its rewards.
it's already shifted no matter what. there is no "next seat". because even if you block one person in this seat they'll just propose another for the same damn seat and ram them through... the only choice is will they propose someone worse or better if this guy gets blocked... that''s it. maybe at mid term elections things will change and provide better options... maybe they won't.
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