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Old 01-29-2017, 07:52 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Well, I'm afraid I'm just going to have to disagree Argent.
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Or, alternatively, if they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement."
~Adolph Hitler, 1934
Punching one Nazi in the face is not "annihilating" anything.

Read what I bloody wrote.

If you're going to punch Nazis in the face, you need to do it every time, and knock them right out, every time. A little ineffectual punching is absolutely not going to do any good. All it does is tell the folks who think just a little racism is a good idea, even if they're not actual Nazis yet, that anti-fascists are "just as bad".
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:07 AM   #52 (permalink)
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I'm pretty sure more needs to happen to transform a person into a Nazi sympathizer than seeing a Nazi getting punched.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:09 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Anyone watch Raiders of the Lost Ark and come away thinking "Those poor Nazis..."
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:55 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Old 01-29-2017, 09:33 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
Punching one Nazi in the face is not "annihilating" anything.

Read what I bloody wrote.

If you're going to punch Nazis in the face, you need to do it every time, and knock them right out, every time. A little ineffectual punching is absolutely not going to do any good. All it does is tell the folks who think just a little racism is a good idea, even if they're not actual Nazis yet, that anti-fascists are "just as bad".
Again, disagree. In each of the cases below, leaders, luminaries, and supporters are either doxed, threatened, or punched. Two of these admit that they are having to rethink their own security, admitting from their "safe spaces" that things have changed. Just a few "little punches" have them scared.

I get that you don't agree and I'm not going to convince you that in this one case violence can be the answer. I honestly hope that you don't ever have to make that choice.



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In the video titled “The assault on me”, he said he was left with a black eye on Saturday and was going to have to start considering “operational security”. He told viewers he was recording the video from what he called a “safe space”.


“I was planning to go out tomorrow during the Women’s March to do some journalism but I can’t do that anymore,” Spencer told viewers. “I have reached a stage of being a public figure where I am going to be recognised and then be attacked."
Alt-right leader Richard Spencer worries getting punched will become 'meme to end all memes' | The Independent

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Last Friday, an anonymous post on Medium doxxed the man behind the podcast “The Daily Shoah” of The Right Stuff, a website the Anti-Defamation League calls “virulently anti-Semitic”—revealing his Manhattan address and claiming that his own wife was Jewish.

Now some in the alt-right are fighting over who exactly outed “Mike Enoch,” whose real name is Mike Peinovich, in an increasingly vicious war of accusations.

Ahead of an inaugural event called The Deploraball, a celebratory gathering organized by alt-right figures and allies set to take place in Washington, D.C., on Thursday, Peinovich spoke about his future in the movement in an interview on his own “Right Stuff Radio.”
Alt-Right Podcaster

TRUMP SUPPORTERS BEATEN-BLOODIED Outside #DeploraBall - Pummeled With Eggs, Batteries! (VIDEO)

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Old 01-29-2017, 11:41 AM   #56 (permalink)
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I'm pretty sure more needs to happen to transform a person into a Nazi sympathizer than seeing a Nazi getting punched.
How is that relevant? Where did I say anything that suggested that?
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:50 AM   #57 (permalink)
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You said, unambiguously, that this would be effective ammunition for convincing people they are a legitimate movement. My "transforming them into a sympathizer" comment is not only relevant to your comment, but, partially, the same thing said in different words.
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:15 PM   #58 (permalink)
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You said, unambiguously, that this would be effective ammunition for convincing people they are a legitimate movement.
Which does not in any way make the claim that this, and this alone, can transform someone into a Nazi.

I see this all the time, people saying "action X isn't what made Y happen because it's not enough". Usually accompanied by "because actions A, B, and C were more important".

What the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING? Actions A, B, and C were still happening, and action X made them more effective.

The US is full of people who are a little bit racist, and a little bit fascist. It's also full of people who are quite a lot racist or fascist but don't act because they think racism or fascism makes then bad people. Or that it will make other people think they're bad people.

Trump's election made a lot of them feel more OK with actually acting out. Anything else that makes them more comfortable with acting out, including "the other side is just as bad", has an effect. It's ammunition.

Or speaking of the election. A lot of people bought into the bogus emails nonsense and decided that "Hillary was just as bad" or "Hillary was worse". It reinforced the prejudices they already had, maybe. Or they were just really stupid. And now we have Trump.
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Old 01-29-2017, 01:24 PM   #59 (permalink)
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If someone is on the brink of acting out Nazi ideology, they are already a Nazi.
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Old 01-29-2017, 03:30 PM   #60 (permalink)
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A Nazi uprising makes everyone else unsafe.

I believe in equality. Therefore, Nazi scum should feel no more safe than anyone whom their ideology threatens.

Let the floggings continue until equality is restored.
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Old 01-29-2017, 04:15 PM   #61 (permalink)
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If someone is on the brink of acting out Nazi ideology, they are already a Nazi.
Are you deliberately missing the point or what?
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Old 01-29-2017, 04:27 PM   #62 (permalink)
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No. I just don't think it's as good a point as you seem to think it is.
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Old 01-29-2017, 07:50 PM   #63 (permalink)
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How can you tell? You're still arguing against things I didn't actually claim.
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Old 01-30-2017, 12:31 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
Which does not in any way make the claim that this, and this alone, can transform someone into a Nazi.

I see this all the time, people saying "action X isn't what made Y happen because it's not enough". Usually accompanied by "because actions A, B, and C were more important".

What the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING? Actions A, B, and C were still happening, and action X made them more effective.
I'm sure I'm missing the point... but isn't a nazi without a movement to join, nothing more than just a racist? It's the 'legitimization of racism' that the movement brings that transforms a racist into a nazi...
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:21 AM   #65 (permalink)
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How can you tell? You're still arguing against things I didn't actually claim.
Ok, you didn't claim that a little ineffectual punching is ammunition to use to convince a racist that Nazis are basically ok. Must have been someone else.
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Old 01-30-2017, 05:25 AM   #66 (permalink)
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No, I didn't. That's a massive distortion of what I wrote.

You're acting like "Nazi" and "Not Nazi" are a binary function, that if someone isn't a declared Nazi they're OK. I keep talking about a continuum and encouraging people towards the "yes I'm a fucking Nazi" end of the spectrum, in opinions or actions. And you keep going "yer a Nazi or yer not a Nazi, bucko".

You might as well argue that since Trump's election wouldn't convert a non-racist into a racist, the fact that it gave ammunition to racists and fascists and led people who weren't acting out yet into acting out is irrelevant, because they were racists anyway.

And:

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Originally Posted by Jopsy Pendragon View Post
I'm sure I'm missing the point... but isn't a nazi without a movement to join, nothing more than just a racist? It's the 'legitimization of racism' that the movement brings that transforms a racist into a Nazi...
Wow, a perfect "but A, B, and C" argument. Actually in response to my description of why it's a fallacy.
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Old 01-30-2017, 05:34 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jopsy Pendragon View Post
I'm sure I'm missing the point... but isn't a nazi without a movement to join, nothing more than just a racist? It's the 'legitimization of racism' that the movement brings that transforms a racist into a nazi...
Not necessarily.
See the movie "The Wave", for example (based on the 1967 experiment "The Third Wave") - these students mostly weren't racist before they began to act nazi-like.
Or have you ever read the story (or watched the movie) "Apt Pupil", by Stephen King? That story is terribly realistic, too.

In East-Germany, many of the people you can see at neo-nazi marches do share the Nazi ideology but aren't members of any of the Neo-Nazi groups and parties (for example the German spin-off of the "White Aryan Resistance", or the neo-nazi party NPD). Some of them are easily recognizable because of their outfits, tattoos and bald heads - but more and more of them look like the boy or girl next door.
Usually their argument is "Ich bin nicht rechtsextrem, ich habe nur eine rechte Meinung" ("I'm not extreme right, I only have a right-wing opinion").

Though my stance is that being a neo-nazi is not just an "opinion", but rather a crime that ought to be punished.
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Old 01-30-2017, 06:39 AM   #68 (permalink)
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No, I didn't. That's a massive distortion of what I wrote.
What's your point then? What's wrong with punching a Nazi and how does it play into your earlier comment about convincing people that "basically Nazis are ok"?

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You're acting like "Nazi" and "Not Nazi" are a binary function, that if someone isn't a declared Nazi they're OK. I keep talking about a continuum and encouraging people towards the "yes I'm a fucking Nazi" end of the spectrum, in opinions or actions. And you keep going "yer a Nazi or yer not a Nazi, bucko".
No I'm not. I'm saying if someone is on the brink of acting out Nazi ideology, they are already a Nazi. This says nothing about whether it's binary or spectrum. What it says is holding to Nazi ideology enough to be on the brink of actually acting it out in the world is sufficient to be considered a Nazi by me. What it says is, at that point, we are already at the Nazi end of any good Nazi-measuring scale.

And I'm also saying it takes a lot to create a Nazi. Which, to my mind, would imply a spectrum, not a binary function.

Where you get the idea I think it's a simplistic binary is a mystery to me.
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Old 01-30-2017, 06:48 AM   #69 (permalink)
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I personaly have 0 tolerance for facists, neo-nazi or any group trying to rename themselves to pretend they are not facist or neo-nazis or anyone defending them, and tbh i ran out of fucks for concerned trolling and false equivelancies online, seriously i´ve watched that shitplaying online for years, i simply give 0 fucks. I hope they are afraid i hope they shit teir pants and cry, cause they have been doing that to everyone else forever.
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Old 01-30-2017, 08:18 AM   #70 (permalink)
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No I'm not. I'm saying if someone is on the brink of acting out Nazi ideology, they are already a Nazi.
Which doesn't have anything to do with anything I wrote. You keep bringing this point up, as if it was relevant.

Let's make up some numbers.

Let's say Steve Bannon is 55% Nazi, and the average Breitbart reader is 30% Nazi, and your random Trump voter is 10% Nazi. If your Breitbart reader at 30% Nazi reads something on Breitbart about this being "typical lie-beral hypocrisy" and follows a link from the story to Stormfront and goes to 35% Nazi, and keys a black guy's car to protest Nazi punching, he's still a long way from full on Nazi, but it's still a case where it's been effective ammunition.
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Old 01-30-2017, 08:40 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Old 01-30-2017, 09:00 AM   #72 (permalink)
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I'd like to point out that punching a Nazi like this POS wouldn't even be an issue over here in Germany because his criminal ass would be in prison for Holocaust denial and the glorification of the Nazi regime.
I must admit I find it funny that these ..... people ..... would not dare set foot in the country that they seem to glorify.
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Old 01-30-2017, 09:11 AM   #73 (permalink)
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https://timeline.com/this-1967-class...7dd#.tqxa28oj4

This 1967 classroom experiment proved how easy it was for Americans to become Nazis
I read the novelization of that after school special back in the 80s. Unlike most after school specials that one stuck in my memory. In fact I think I still have the book in my home library.
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Old 01-30-2017, 09:15 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Again, disagree. In each of the cases below, leaders, luminaries, and supporters are either doxed, threatened, or punched. Two of these admit that they are having to rethink their own security, admitting from their "safe spaces" that things have changed. Just a few "little punches" have them scared.
Am I the only one that finds the idea of nazis wanting safe spaces to be hilarious?
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Old 01-30-2017, 09:18 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Am I the only one that finds the idea of nazis wanting safe spaces to be hilarious?
Nah.
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