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Old 01-06-2017, 11:38 PM   #26 (permalink)
But it refused. <3

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Or he can't stand it when someone with real experience on a topic calls him out.

I believe we have burn units for that.

Yeah, I was thinking of needling him with that next week. "Daniel's a real engineer, not the kind who works at a Jiffy Lube."

I have turned into a fucking troll.

#whatwouldinnulado?
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:48 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Yeah, I was thinking of needling him with that next week. "Daniel's a real engineer, not the kind who works at a Jiffy Lube."

I have turned into a fucking troll.

#whatwouldinnulado?
What this have turned stuff?

Think Tweedledee and Tweedledum have graced us with their presence in various threads, because deep down they realise their god emperor is a Manchurian Candidate?
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:52 PM   #28 (permalink)
But it refused. <3

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Think Tweedledee and Tweedledum have graced us with their presence in various threads, because deep down they realise their god emperor is a Manchurian Candidate?
It's kinda weird, because I post in a couple other places too and the local trolls are up way past their normal quitting time flailing around out of control even in topics they've not shown much interest in before.
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Old 01-07-2017, 01:00 AM   #29 (permalink)
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#whatwouldinnulado?
#ingnorethemcoslifeistooshort
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Old 01-07-2017, 10:23 AM   #30 (permalink)
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It was more like a few billion dollars a year, and long ago I actually worked on it, when I worked for Boeing. I worked on Kinetic Kill Vehicles and Space Based Lasers.

The proper name was the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), although in popular media it was nicknamed "Star Wars". The current name is the Missile Defense Agency, part of the Defense Department. The "layered defense" concept is still the core idea of the program, but only parts of the system are functional. One result of the program is we now have actual railguns and combat laser weapons, but they are not yet good enough to shoot down ballistic missiles.
Maybe a side topic but how much of SDI was pure bullshit and how much of it was achievable at the time? I've always viewed it as something of a tech show of possibilities with a heaping of good old American propaganda and based on what I did see in the military, I knew some of it would eventually come to pass.

I'd love to hear your take on it.
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Old 01-07-2017, 11:28 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Maybe a side topic but how much of SDI was pure bullshit and how much of it was achievable at the time? I've always viewed it as something of a tech show of possibilities with a heaping of good old American propaganda and based on what I did see in the military, I knew some of it would eventually come to pass.

I'd love to hear your take on it.
Me too.

I remember at the time, a programmer friend of mine commenting that he'd never heard of a computer programme of any complexity, let alone one comprising several million lines of code, that worked as expected the first time you ran it, and by definition you couldn't do much live beta-testing with SDI, since it was supposed to work in extreme conditions with nuclear explosions and huge electro-magnetic pulses going off all over the place.
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Old 01-07-2017, 12:36 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Maybe a side topic but how much of SDI was pure bullshit and how much of it was achievable at the time? I've always viewed it as something of a tech show of possibilities with a heaping of good old American propaganda and based on what I did see in the military, I knew some of it would eventually come to pass.

I'd love to hear your take on it.
I would be interesting to hear it as well. I would place my money on the lasers being pure oo-ah though. The kinetics would probably be better but it would be a stretch with 80s tech .... you would need something like a rail gun and a better computer to quickly work out both trajectories involved.
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Old 01-07-2017, 01:10 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Maybe a side topic but how much of SDI was pure bullshit and how much of it was achievable at the time? I've always viewed it as something of a tech show of possibilities with a heaping of good old American propaganda and based on what I did see in the military, I knew some of it would eventually come to pass.

I'd love to hear your take on it.
We could no more defend against a mass nuclear attack at the start of the SDI program than we could go to the Moon in 1961, when Kennedy set us on the course to do so. Note that anti-ballistic missile systems have existed since the 1960's, but they are more point defense than covering the whole nation.

What the Manhattan and Apollo programs had demonstrated was the US could achieve great things if they put their minds to it, so the SDI program was a credible threat to the USSR. If it worked, it would render their side of Mutually Assured Destruction no longer assured, by destroying large numbers of their nukes before they hit their targets.

The parts of the program I worked on had very smart people involved, and the technologies should have worked if they had been finished, but they were never carried that far. For example, the kinetic kill vehicles would be an orbiting constellation of small interceptors, such that some were always over the USSR or the path from there to the US. They would orbit in the opposite direction that the missiles would travel, and therefore carry ~30 times the collision energy by sheer velocity as an equivalent mass of TNT. That's why they were called "kinetic", they didn't need explosives to destroy their target, just speed and sufficient accuracy to hit them. So a lot of the work went into miniature guidance systems and thrusters to enable the accuracy.

After the USSR collapsed, and various nuclear treaties negotiated, the urgency went out of the program. It's continued at a lower level right up to the present, with partial systems like THAAD being deployed, and lasers and railguns moving into combat systems.

The threats have also changed. Whatever media bluster and posturing by Russia & China, they depend on trade with Europe and the US, and don't want to blow us up. The more likely threats are smaller countries with crazy leaders, or a few bombs falling into the wrong hands. So the details of what kind of systems are being developed change along with the threat.
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Old 01-07-2017, 01:19 PM   #34 (permalink)
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America has the best missile defence ever. Donald J Trump.

Trump's head is so empty down to the quantum level that it warps reality, and the laws of physics break down in it's vicinity.

Just place Trump in the path of the oncoming missiles and they will instantly transform into whales or bowls of geraniums.
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Old 01-07-2017, 01:25 PM   #35 (permalink)
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There were also the "tomato cans" (kinetic interceptors) which were being developed for our air force. They'd get as close as possible while in the atmosphere and release them there to intercept. I don't know how far that got, but sounds like a reasonable (but desparate) concept.

EDIT: links pentagon-may-discard-asat-system (1986), China's successful test of an ASAT weapon (Time)

It got squashed for various reasons, mostly being "ahead of it's time" and thus not working well, global politics, and because of space debris issues.
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Old 01-07-2017, 02:29 PM   #36 (permalink)
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We could no more defend against a mass nuclear attack at the start of the SDI program than we could go to the Moon in 1961, when Kennedy set us on the course to do so.
...
The parts of the program I worked on had very smart people involved, and the technologies should have worked if they had been finished, but they were never carried that far. For example, the kinetic kill vehicles would be an orbiting constellation of small interceptors, such that some were always over the USSR or the path from there to the US. They would orbit in the opposite direction that the missiles would travel, and therefore carry ~30 times the collision energy by sheer velocity as an equivalent mass of TNT. That's why they were called "kinetic", they didn't need explosives to destroy their target, just speed and sufficient accuracy to hit them. So a lot of the work went into miniature guidance systems and thrusters to enable the accuracy.
As I see it today, the SDI program was a genius move, a win-win thing. Defeat them by draining their money in an expensive armament race, and get new technologies along. Congratulations and many thanks to everybody involved! God bless America.


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...
The threats have also changed. Whatever media bluster and posturing by Russia & China, they depend on trade with Europe and the US, and don't want to blow us up. ...
Not talking about China here, but a nuclear threat by Russia is a fear spread by Russians themselves. In fact, it's a joke.

They (the Kremlin gang) are in an even worse situation today than back in times of SDI. Unlike in the 80's, all their military "secrets" are well known, they have property and keep money in the West, and their children live and study in Western countries. Bluff by spreading fear in media is all they can do.

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Old 01-07-2017, 02:35 PM   #37 (permalink)
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There were also the "tomato cans" (kinetic interceptors) which were being developed for our air force. They'd get as close as possible while in the atmosphere and release them there to intercept. I don't know how far that got, but sounds like a reasonable (but desparate) concept.
That's the same concept being developed by the Navy (and most likely the other services) for both bombardment systems and missile defense.

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Old 01-07-2017, 02:49 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Just place Trump in the path of the oncoming missiles and they will instantly transform into whales or bowls of geraniums.
So that was an EXTREMELY aptly named ship!
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Old 01-07-2017, 04:14 PM   #39 (permalink)
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it warps reality, and the laws of physics break down in it's vicinity ... instantly transform into whales or bowls of geraniums.
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference, Isabeau.
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Old 01-07-2017, 04:50 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Old 01-07-2017, 05:18 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Thank you Luc, for introducing me to that channe. He has some fun videos.

Here he develops the concept a bit and tries to build a rail gun:

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Old 01-08-2017, 06:32 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Just place Trump in the path of the oncoming missiles and they will instantly transform into whales or bowls of geraniums.
It was petunias - see, Trump wouldn't even get that right...
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Old 01-08-2017, 06:39 AM   #43 (permalink)
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As I see it today, the SDI program was a genius move, a win-win thing. Defeat them by draining their money in an expensive armament race, and get new technologies along.
"Win-Win" ? Once again I recommend Whitley and Strieber's Warday. This time because they show that the alternative to the USSR going broke trying to match SDI was for them to mount an attack before SDI could be put in place to prevent it.

As it happens, the 'coin flip of destiny' came up heads on that, it could so easily have been tails...
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Old 01-08-2017, 10:13 AM   #44 (permalink)
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It was petunias - see, Trump wouldn't even get that right...
So the only law T respects is copyright I guess?
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:10 AM   #45 (permalink)
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"Win-Win" ? Once again I recommend Whitley and Strieber's Warday. This time because they show that the alternative to the USSR going broke trying to match SDI was for them to mount an attack before SDI could be put in place to prevent it.
Once again, it wasn't missile defense that bankrupted the Soviets. Their economy was already failing. Exorbitant military spending hastened the inevitable, but it wasn't the main reason.
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Old 01-08-2017, 12:07 PM   #46 (permalink)
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"Win-Win" ? Once again I recommend Whitley and Strieber's Warday. This time because they show that the alternative to the USSR going broke trying to match SDI was for them to mount an attack before SDI could be put in place to prevent it.

As it happens, the 'coin flip of destiny' came up heads on that, it could so easily have been tails...
This was my assumption then.

I operated on the belief that the soviet government would sooner take us all out then admit failure. Fortunately I was wrong, but I wonder if Putin would admit failure in a similar position.
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Old 01-08-2017, 12:31 PM   #47 (permalink)
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"Win-Win" ?
Yes, a brilliant win-win. Sovůk is history now, and America had a push in technologies.


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Once again I recommend Whitley and Strieber's Warday. This time because they show that the alternative to the USSR going broke trying to match SDI was for them to mount an attack before SDI could be put in place to prevent it.
Nah, better you try to explain in your own words, why they actually did not mount an attack and preferred losing fourteen colonies and the whole Warsaw Pakt instead.


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As it happens, the 'coin flip of destiny' came up heads on that, it could so easily have been tails...
LOL. Do you really believe in a coincidence there?

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Old 01-08-2017, 01:39 PM   #48 (permalink)
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and America had a push in technologies.
And look where it got you, Mr Trump...
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Old 01-08-2017, 02:57 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Yes, a brilliant win-win. Sovůk is history now, and America had a push in technologies.
And look where it got you, Mr Trump...
What has Trump to do in a discussion about SDI? I beg pardon, are you an idiot?
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Old 01-08-2017, 06:16 PM   #50 (permalink)
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There were also the "tomato cans" (kinetic interceptors) which were being developed for our air force. They'd get as close as possible while in the atmosphere and release them there to intercept. I don't know how far that got, but sounds like a reasonable (but desparate) concept.

EDIT: links pentagon-may-discard-asat-system (1986), China's successful test of an ASAT weapon (Time)

It got squashed for various reasons, mostly being "ahead of it's time" and thus not working well, global politics, and because of space debris issues.
The ASAT program was different from ballistic missile defense. It was intended to shoot down satellites in orbit. Ballistic missiles are not in orbit, they follow a suborbital path. That means you have a much shorter time to react. Orbiting satellites you can take years to knock down.

I think everyone has agreed that ASAT systems are a bad idea, because they fill up Earth orbit with debris. That debris is lethal for the same reason as the kinetic kill vehicles were: speed. They will cause damage to anything they hit.
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