BEARintheMorning

Okay. I've put this off far too long but I think now is the time.

I've been fooling around with realXtend and the rex server making a small 4-sim "estate" to play around on hosting it on my own network. I haven't done any major work. Mostly just terrain and some minor prim building.

I spent a few hours yesterday learning about OSG and OLG. I'm honestly not leaning in either direction. Both grids have their good and bad points but in my mind they're about even.

The two biggest selling points for me are mesh support and the ability to host and connect my own regions to the existing grid (not on my local machine but let's assume I have access to a couple of kick-ass servers and a ton of bandwidth somewhere ).

My question is, which grid do you think I should go to and why?

Do your best to "sell" me on either one without mudslinging or negativity toward the other.

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Macphisto Angelus

I love them both, Bear. I can't really find a negative thing to say about OSG though I prefer OLG.

Why do I like OLG? Well, mainly because I think Sakai OpenLife is working his ass off to make a stable environment that will not mirror OpenSim worlds or Second Life. RealXTend is feature wise not always the same as OpenSim. Now it is based on OpenSim but I hear soon that won't be the case as much. Maybe elements, but it will have it's own thing going.

Sakai's motto is stability before everything. The main reason the beta tests of RealXTend in a actual virtual world are taking more time then before is because they are making sure it is as stable as possible before showing it.

Remember.. avatars will be a different Mesh, objects will support Mesh.. this will not be a mirror image of OpenSim.

Now.. advantage prime of OSG is that you can connect your own standalone pretty cheap as Adam pointed out in another thread here. Joshua had a region going.. likely still does and it was set up pretty easy from his account. This is not available in OpenLife right now. You can get a region for about 80 bucks (includes first month tier) and around 59 bucks a month. At least that gives you something to compare costs with hosting your own.

So.. which to go with. Try them both. I suggest you try OLG when the beta starts though because seeing it now is not much different then seeing OSG or any of the others. Beta is when it will shine.

As Flip said in another thread.. stability is not ready for prime time. Either way you go (or even if you go elesewhere like 3RD Rock, TribalNet, etc) you need to be ready for crashes, server restarts, lag at times, etc. That all comes with Beta. Really, the correct term is Alpha at this moment.

It is totally for the adventurous and hardy ones among us.

Don't make a commitment yet.. just sign up at both grids and check them out. In OLG's case hang out in the chat room to meet some people. Sometimes it is slow in there but often it is pretty active.

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BEARintheMorning

Thanks Mac, I appreciate that.

I think I'll hold off on doing anything but play on my own network for now. The cost comparison is moot at this time since the server space and bandwidth I have access to is free to me through a client of mine.

Even though realX is *sort of* leaning in OSG's direction with the pre-packaged standalone OpenGrid servers if OSG isn't going to support some of the features realX is building in to their code (mesh building, new avatars, etc) then it makes no sense for me to connect to the OpenSim grid at this time.

I'll just bide my time a little more and rather than waste that time in SL building I'll play in my little sandbox until it's possible to connect to OLG or somebody else out there.

I just think my "play time" is better spent somewhere - anywhere - else than SL right now. But now that I have my accounts all set up at OSG and OLG I'll pop in from time to time but at the very least I'll keep up on their news and forums.

Adam Zaius

Personally - I'm a fan of OSGrid -there's a few reasons (getting regions up on something like slicehost is a good start - but I find the community is a lot more dynamic too), but the big reasons are that the OpenSim software itself is a lot more mature - the current Rex server is about 6 months out of date (0.5.5 - which if you follow OpenSim is a very long time - both stability and feature-wise).

Rex is actually merging the other way rather than splitting apart - the big job that's being done right now is converting Rex to OpenSim+Rex.dll vs the current forked codebase. (full disclosure: DeepThink is contracting to Rex to help with that integration work).

This was a screenshot from the current 'modularrex' version we're working on as of yesterday (this is on a stock OpenSim with modularrex.dll installed)


I think Sakai's custom "3dxserver" will probably end up being just a distribution of the standard OpenSim software really, there's not a lot special about what he's doing as far as I can tell other than doing additional testing and throwing a frontend on it. Not disparaging what he's doing - just I dont really see much point myself since it just means additional maintainence and synchronisation work.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Ignore Adam, he's just a troll.

Lecktor Hannibal

I don't know the ins and outs of the technical aspects what Sakai and team is doing but, I had a lengthy conversation with him yesterday that convinced me this statement isn't true. Not being disparaging with you at all Adam. Hopefully Sakai will post here and glean a bit of info for everyone.


I like the ability of OSGrid to connect your own sims to the network but, I've pitched full in with OpenLife for various other reasons.

Adam Zaius

Yeah, I'd be very curious as to why - especially when groups like Rex have spent all year trying to get everything merged back in,

BEARintheMorning

Thanks Leck & Adam.

I guess the big stumbling block for me with OLG is the inability to connect my own hosted sims to the grid. Unless that changes at some point (with or without a connection fee) the chances are I probably won't be swayed in that direction.

Adam - are there plans at OSG to support the features built in/coming to Rex such as mesh?

Should I be looking at different viewer/server software other than realXtend?

I'm using it now mainly because I grabbed it when Joshua posted that it was available and I was of the opinion that it was going to be the viewer/server software of choice for the future and being made compatible with all of the alternative grids coming up.

These are indeed exciting and interesting times but it's enough to drive a man to .

Adam Zaius

There is.

Right now earlier versions of the rex viewer will work (.3 and below) if you force rex-mode on (SHIFT+R), newer versions will need to wait until potentially the end of the year until the 'modular rex' stuff is done.

Macphisto Angelus

One observation. ReX is months behind on the OpenSim build for sure. But, I from all I have read about ReX I don't think current OpenSim builds was the big focus for them. They are working on the cool new shiny features and using the OpenSim build as more of a way to connect to see those features rather then a attempt to bring the newest builds home to us.

Anyone I have talked to that runs the ReX standalone (and the main reason I tell people to try it) is because they are testing the features of Mesh objects, etc and using it to learn programs like Blender for when the tech is live.

BEARintheMorning

Good to hear Adam, thanks!

Thanks Mac. That's exactly why I got the Rex stuff up and running when it first came out and heard it had mesh support.

And I'm really glad I picked up Blender. I don't know if it was my previous 3DS Max experience or what but Blender has been a dream to work with and I've installed it on my other computer now and my 14yr old son and I sit side-by-side playing with it and building stuff.

Then of course we get all bummed out knowing it won't translate to SL very well with sculpties but that's okay. We can mess around on my personal sandboxes and I'm looking forward to going live with this stuff someday on a grid someplace.

Mabb Dilweg

OK I will re-read this when my head isnt aching quite so much, because there's a lot of unfamiliar TLAs in there !

However I would appreciate some advice on where to look, and what to get. This is what I need:

• Stand alone for now, just for me to use on my own PC
• Binaries, binaries, binaries. I so do not want to stuff around with getting C# or Visual Studio and I am not a natural as a programmer
• I want to test skins, clothes tattoos etc and raw files so I want a preview environment
• Saving my avi between sessions
• Saving terrain between sessions
• Easy to install with minimal farting around with config files etc

I tried OpenSim but I dont get it... maybe I need to RTFM a bit more, but I couldnt get it to remember my avi's shape etc and it wouldnt let me upload raw files

I also tried the hippo viewer but that was a bomb it went spastic on me with ports and stuff. The regular SL viewer with startup params worked but I foolishly used the same name and it gets confused i think.

So I would greatly appreciate some advice on what to choose, which version and so on.

At some point in the future, I might want to share out my server with a select few people but I am prepared to change environments for that... I have a learning curve to overcome first, not just with the sim stuff but also Bailiwick and Terragen and I hate reading manuals, I like to get something going, try stuff out and just look up what I need to know as I need to know it.



thanks in advance for any pointers, especially to easy to follow tutorials etc


Mxxx

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Macphisto Angelus

Ok, here is what I suggest.

Since you want a quick and painless set up without compiling and the like you can grab the standalone from OpenLife and do just about all you said. Feature wise it is a few builds behind OpenSim's present set up, but is very stable and the only thing I see on your list that I am not totally sure about is saving the avatar. You can save all aspects (skin, body, etc) but *may* have to reapply them between log ins. There are ways around this if you go full blown MYSQL but I am sensing you want a install and go and not fuss with stuff.

The openlife standalone will install like the usual windows set ups and the best viewer out there that I have used (I have tried I think all opensource ones) is Kirsten's R15 which is also available from the download section on OpenLife. You do have to create an account to download, but that is fast and painless.

There is only one possible irritation if you use it and that has to do with the GUI that OpenLife added to the set up. For people that it works for it is awesome, but when it doesnt work you pretty much disconnect from your region when you create a prim. I wrote in the standalone wiki how to get around that (it is pretty painless too):

Here is the link to the standalone wiki (it is in the process of getting cleaned up right now):

Openlife Ready to Run OpenSimulator Wiki


Now, if you want to get your hands dirty and get the most up to the minute features then you can download the set up from the OpenSim project's website. If you go that route the first thing I recommend is Maxx Monde's excellent how to set up blog post. Some of the info is a little outdated as Maxx is busy in RL.

OpenSim - Install and Configuration Tutorial « OpenSim Easy User Guide

The second "go to" blog source I recommend on how to do things is Rock's. His is at:

Chapter & Metaverse: 4. Installing a Standalone Sim - updated


Now, with either you have to expect some crashes, losses and the like. I have only lost stuff once but the software is very Alpha and though gaining ground quickly it still has it's warts.

The OpenLife method I listed first is perfect for the quick and painless install. I use it even though it is a little behind on features. It really is only a testing ground for me too.

If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask. There are a few of us around here willing to help. I am hardly an expert but I will help with what I can.

Mabb Dilweg

Mac, thank you! That's exactly the kind of info I need

Actually I'm not phazed with the MySQL thing, I am comfortable with databases and even creating queries etc and I already run it as a windows service for SAM Broadcaster. I do remember reading somewhere about swapping to MySQL to save your avi's appearance and I think I gave it a half-hearted try before giving up because I had way too much on my plate at the time.

cheers

Mxxx

Mabb Dilweg

I have a potentially dumb question. Since I never installed OpenSim in the windows sense, do I just delete it? I dont want stray files hanging around from different apps...

Lecktor Hannibal

Yes I believe a delete will do just fine. I don't recall any registry entries being made.
As far as the avvie persistence, have you created a new shape, hair, skin and eyes and worn them then tweaked in appearance mode? Once you do that and make outfit and save it should be persistent in opensim or openlife instances.

Adam Zaius

Assuming it's a stock-ish opensim install, it wont ever touch anything outside it's own directory. (or shouldnt anyway)

Joshua Nightshade

If I can offer an opinion about this, ahem.

I don't like Openlife Grid. I've said before that I have misgivings about Sakai. I'm sure at one point he was interested in being a part of Opensim, but now I think he's simply interested in furthering himself. His behavior in dropping the announcement about the original RealXtend stuff well before the actual developers did so (despite asking Sakai and everyone else to not speak out about what they were invited privately to demo) and linking it to OLG was shitty, in my opinion. The behavior I've seen from him strikes me as someone who's not a decent person, and as such I've recommended against anyone going to OLG who's asked me.

A few people have pointed fingers at me and said WELL UR DATING ADAM SO OBVIOUSLY UR BIASED FOR OSGRID! and there's numerous fallacies in that statement. Firstly I don't really talk about this stuff that much with Adam, and we both have our own opinions. For example, I have a harder line against the commercial grids because really most of these people aren't involved in the creation of Opensim and are, to me, simply capitalizing for free on the work of many others. Most of them contribute little back, and I think that's douchey. It's, however, simply my own opinion.

Secondly, OSGrid is a non-profit, non-commercial initiative. So there's really no accuracy in saying I have a bias for them to "succeed" against something like OLG because they're not selling anything.

In reality, I have a bias for Opensim itself to succeed, and I feel that the commercial grids run by untrustworthy people is detrimental to that. Opensim is alpha level and I think it's being brought up on an inflated level than it's capable of delivering right now because so many people have legitimate misgivings about LL and are looking for another alternative. But people in SL have SL-expectations that may or may not be in the cards for the people creating Opensim, and if those expectations are being nurtured by people running commercial grids incorrectly it's going to backfire. And if that happens then it's not going to matter whether OLG or OSGrid or anything else is on top because it'll be a moot point.

So personally I haven't seen any commercial grid I like, because I don't think Opensim is at a point yet that's justified for anyone's pricing. But again, that's my opinion, and if they have to exist commercially I would rather they're run by someone I don't have misgivings with the behavior of.

OSGrid has a lot of advantages: it's free, you're in control of your sims wholly pretty much, and you can take them off any time. It has disadvantages too, it's bleeding edge, it's buggy because of that, and you have to commit to being almost as bleeding edge with your updates because of the nature of the grid. It doesn't have the luxury of commercial grids where everything will be updated for you, but on the other token I don't think any other grid will let you plug in your own hardware, much less for free with no issue.

But as others have said it's a matter of choice and this early there's no reason to pick one over the other.

Ben Hoark

I like OSGrid. I like the whole idea of it (that you are running your land on your own hardware, and OSGrid essentially just provides a way to connect with other areas on other computers...assuming I've understood correctly...which I might not have done...).

It strikes me as the way the metaverse ought to be, and I'd really like to see it (or something based on the same open model) succeed.

Oh, and hi, Josh, nice to see you back.

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Macphisto Angelus

Today I created my own grid.

It is gonna be the best damn grid out there! Why? Cause it is on my standalone and no drama stirrers can come. Oh, and my TRU textures will be downloaded like a mad dog and that chick don't have ANYONE she can contact about that but me.. and I will LULZ and LOL all over her letter cause I am master of my own domain, dammit!!

I AM GONNA RULE EVERYONE WHO COMES TO MY GRID! which means me and my wife. And I will likely get tired of her and will ban her ass anyway.

But, I will report bugs to the OpenSim community and if I stumble on something that can help others they will get it.

MY grid.. MY way. That is the motto. I am even going to create a lame ass welcome web page so when I log into it it will feel somewhat official. I am gonna be a freaking grid czar!! Maybe even make my own forums so just I can tell myself what a hell of a job I am doing! if I abuse report myself I will shit can the AR when it hits my email box.

Now, all joking aside (well, half joking) I have found a fundamental difference between OSG and OLG and the rest. OSG is not as Joshua said, there to make a world. Reading further into it and with some words of wisdom from someone I value their opinioin I get what OSGrid is about. Pure testing. They are not making a world, they are testing the codes under stress to make the OpenSim project advance through fixing those issues that arrive.

I see now that asking to help decide between OLG and OSG is like saying who make the best hamburgers? Mom or McDonalds? Both offer the burger but one is making commercial funds from it while the other is just offering the place to sit down and eat. I am a firm believer in free market, but OSG and OLG are just not apples to apples.

I am doing a series on my blog on the first hour of joining these grids and what I found.. I can safely say OSG is a true frontier. Nobody calling the shots for a world, you just plug in and all rules are on you. I would expect lots more issues from OSG if you set up there as it is the bleeding edge and you are there to test the newest fixes and features. The commercial grids put together stable aspects and often add their own for their grids so as unstable as it can be at times it is likely more stable then OSG. But again.. if you are going to ask for comparaissons I think here the best thing to do is ask between places like OLG, LCO, 3RD Rock, Avatar Hangout and the others.. OSGrid really stands alone in the comparisons. They have nothing to lose if you do not choose them except for another willing body to help with the testing.

I just wanted to post this because now I know more then I did when I put my original thoughts forward.

BEARintheMorning

I'm with you Josh (for slightly different reasons, but with you none the less) and welcome back.

Quite frankly, I have no passion left at all for any grid right now...period.

With that said however, if I was once again a grid addict I can assure you I wouldn't sink a dime into any open source grid right now - in alpha? Pay money? Pardon me for a second...


... ...

/me wipes tears away

Hey, you want to be the next LL get yourself a shit load of investors, put together a real dev team and go for it. In my opinion this bullshit flies in the face of what open source is all about and it's bad for the community overall.

Right or wrong, that's my opinion and nothing will change it.

If I gave a flying fuck about 3D worlds right now I'd be playing in SL and working in OSG - and not paying a thin dime to be involved in either.

Sorry OLG, LCO, ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP, or any other unestablished "open source" grid charging money to be part of it - I bet on a dud horse in LL and lost - I'll just drive down the street holding my open wallet out of the window next time I want to throw money away.



Do I sound bitter?

Macphisto Angelus

I ban you from my grid, Bear! You are out of it!


Well, mainly because I don't have a clue how to invite you into it so if I say I ban you then it makes me sound all grid czar, right?

BEARintheMorning

First Mouse World, now this.

How will I cope?

Macphisto Angelus

OO Now you gave me an idea. I can call my place WALT DISNEY WORLD. Let 'em stop me!! mwahahahahahahaha

Lucifer Baphomet

Pretty much what my friend, Fletch, (aka Lazarus aka Twitch,)) who acts as an admin for OSGrid says Josh, in fact, compared to what he's said to me, youve gone easy on Sakai

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