SLUniverse Forums

Gigs

I'm a programmer. I write software for a living. Everything I produce can be copied with absolutely no technical "flags" protecting the work I produce.

So don't tell me you can't make money creating things that don't have technical protections. Millions of people do it every day. The vast majority of the public is honest and will pay for the products they use.

A few people will shoplift, a few people will steal phone service, and a few people will pirate all their software. You can't stop it. You just accept it as a cost of doing business and go on with your life. If someone is being particularly egregious such as selling your product in an unauthorized way, then you file a DMCA and/or sue them.

Colette Meiji

Look no need to get all platitudes on me..

Just explain simply how it would work in Second Life.

You tell me how Suzy Swimsuit seller can manage to sell bikini's without them becoming freely given away all across the grid.

And don't give me that DMCA crap, because LL moves at a Glacial pace on that.

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And tell me why again Linden Labs HAS to allow full permissions with normal sales, I missed that part.

Gigs

It would work in SL the same as it works everywhere else for every other career that produces an intangible, copyable, result.

Suzy swimsuit seller does exactly what she does today, she builds a brand. When I want clothes in SL, I go to Simone's store. I don't go shopping at random crappy Brazilian malls.

The community is also stepping up to publicly ridicule and call out infringement. This should continue, and is probably more effective than any lawsuit ever will be. It's how most open source license violation enforcement is done, and has been effective there.

Linden Lab needs to fix their glacial pace. The DMCA requires timely takedowns. "the service provider [must respond] expeditiously to remove, or disable access to, the material that is claimed to be infringing upon " (Chapter 5 Section 512). LL actually loses protection under the DMCA if they don't do this.

Joshua Nightshade

LL has already lost their protection. It will just take one lawsuit for that to crumble.

Colette Meiji

You are vastly overestimating how often this is done compared to the extent of the problem.

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And why again does LL have to remove permissions?

I see your argument of allowing copybot for personal use,

But I still don't see WHY LL has to remove permissions.

Plenty of sites over the years have tried to block photo downloads for example.

Gigs

They don't have to do anything. If they want to be irrelevant in the future, they can keep the current permissions system. If they want a real open grid, they need to discard the idea of permissions, and get people used to the idea of using copyright licenses. Copyright licenses are inherently too complex to enforce mechanically, especially since they might not even have the same implications depending on where you live.

While it's not really "permissions", there will still be some elements of protection. Script source code never needs to leave its originating grid or the authors computer. Script bytecode will need to be accessible to any person who runs a grid though.

Colette Meiji

Also why does everything you make in Second Life count as "Open Source" ?

Where does that come from?

Colette Meiji

Why cant that be up to the creator?

Gigs

It's not up to the creator now, it only seems like it is because Linden Lab created the illusion of something that doesn't actually exist.

Gigs

Where does it come from? I never said that.

Colette Meiji

How does LL allowing the creator to continue those protections as limited as they are,

Really hurt LL any?

You still have the choice to offer your item full perms, after all.

Colette Meiji

here

Gigs

Because the longer the lie is continued, the more damage it will cause when the house of cards falls down.

Gigs

You misread. I said that method is an effective one for the open source community. The open source community has had great success using public ridicule to enforce copyright law, without ever filing a lawsuit.

I was just saying that that is a strategy that can (and is) being used to enforce copyright outside of permissions or DMCA.

Colette Meiji

LOL If you did it today, right now ..

You could put LL out of business.

How much more damage are you going to cause later?

Put them out of business twice?

Joshua Nightshade

Ugh this is a stupid argument.

You're both right, and both wrong, and there's a middle ground between DRM and free for all.

Colette Meiji

Doesn't open source basically give their stuff away ... kind of the concept?

Its not the same thing really as people selling content, is it?

Gigs

They could start by removing permissions on textures. Those are often sold full perm anyway, so the impact would be very low, and it would get people used to the idea that those permissions weren't effectively protecting anything.

Colette Meiji

Basically what Adam Described.

Gigs

Open source relies on copyright law to enforce the terms of the open source licenses. We still must enforce against copyright infringement. Not every open source license says "do whatever you want", the GPL in particular requires people to keep the code open.

It's because open source often does not have a huge pool of money to draw from that we have had to find low-cost ways to enforce copyright.

Gigs

Yeah, it's called copyright licenses.

Colette Meiji

Gigs, its sounds like you are playing the "Its good enough for us, it should be good enough for anyone" game.


That is probably fallacious I am just too lazy to look it up.

Gigs

Well, I see it as, "it works for the rest of the world, it can work here too".

Here are the real world options:

a) Using a copyright license and basically trusting your users (very common)
b) Suing grandmothers and 9 year olds (the RIAA strategy)
c) Trying to force standardized DRM on everyone, and have it cracked 2 days after it comes out (the MPAA strategy)
d) Get into an all out arms race with pirates, investing tons of time and money into constantly breaking the pirate's methods (Dish Network/DirectTV)

Gigs

The Appeal to Common Practice is a fallacy with the following structure:

1. X is a common action.
2. Therefore X is correct/moral/justified/reasonable, etc.

There. If my argument relied solely on saying that because it was a common practice, it was right, then I would be guilty of this. I don't think I'm doing that though. I'm just saying it was successful elsewhere, and thus far it appears to be successful in SL too.

Colette Meiji

LOL it doesn't work for the rest of the world though.

You just gave examples why.


You cant expect the unwashed masses to respect Copyright the Same way a bunch of open source developers do.

Look at Naspter and all its Descendants.