Fmeh

Are you going to sit there and try to tell me that hip-hop culture INS'T the most misogynistic out of pretty much any other popular culture? Are you going to try to claim that hip-hop culture treats women with respect? I can't think of a single instance of someone from hip-hop culture treating women with respect, unless that "respect" means giving them lots of diamonds and jewelery and "bling" and things that cost money.

You mentioned older standards for things--there's a reason why you can't think of any NEW scenarios other than hip-hop culture that treats people that way--it's because EVERYONE ELSE LEARNED already that it's wrong to treat people that way. If someone like Sinatra was doing now what he did back then, you BETTER BELIEVE in a quick minute that he would be severely chastised for it. Ever wonder why James Bond movies aren't misogynistic anymore? Gee, I wonder...

As far as bands saying "we love gay people"---NO, it's not going to happen. But mark my words, the people that I see the MOST intolerance of gay people, the people that I see ranking on gay people the most--with the exception of Phelps types--are those who come from that culture.

I make my appearance look the way I do because of gang culture--appearance is the only way without actually trying to act "gangster". The only way I could be more prepared to deal with people like that is if I carried a gun and when I start getting fucked with "faggot" or whatever, I pull it out, shove it in their face, and tell them to shut the fuck up, and that's just not something I'm going to do.

You obviously haven't been the brunt of this sort of thing. You obviously don't know what it's like. I'm tired of living my life in fear of some gangster wannabe making some comment and I can't say something back because they probably pack and/or have their homies right there to beat the shit out of me if I have a problem with something they've said.

What sort of similar thing do you have with gay people? That someone that you're not attracted to might find you attractive? That someone might make a comment about your outfit? What sort of similar FEAR do you have of gay people? DO YOU FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE if you were to make a comment back to them?

I'm tired of it! I'm sick of that culture taking over things. I'm not going to go back to living like gay people had to in the 60's. If it DOES get bad enough where I have to worry just from walking outside my door, I WILL get a firearm. Luckily THAT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

I shouldn't have to live in fear. Maybe you don't understand that--oh wait--y'all get it from the police, so instead of realizing how wrong it is, let's just treat everyone else that way so they can be just as scared. It's SHIT! It's a bunch of CRAP!

I'd like to be able to go to a Denny's or any other restaurant and not have to hear the word "GAY" or "faggot" followed by that type of laughter that is forced because if you don't laugh you must be gay, used every 20th word by gangster/hip-hop/rap-loving types.

I don't even hear that kind of stuff from total rednecks that talk about hitting their wives.

If the videos didn't depict what they depict, if the lyrics didn't depict what they depict, I wouldn't be having this conversation because the things that are popular wouldn't be a bunch of misogynistic BS.

Trying to claim that hip-hop culture isn't homophobic or misogynistic is like trying to claim that the culture in Iraq or Iran or Pakistan or Saudi Arabia isn't homophobic or misogynistic. Sure, there are the REALLY RARE people who go against that, but THEY'RE RARE.

I can't think of a single time that I've heard someone in one of those "faggot" conversations say, "Come on now, they're not bad people" or anything like that--it's always laughing with them.

Just like other people have changed, I'm sure that hip-hop can change, but as long as it's SOOOOO focused on being SOOOO different than the rest of society, that they can't be "like the man", that's going to take a long time. A VERY long time.



Let me put it this way: I've purposely hung out at places where one would THINK there'd be a lot of homophobia. I've went to redneck hangouts--I've done it for years to test myself and it just doesn't compare to a matter of minutes around gangster-hip-hop types: I've went to biker bars, trucker hangouts, places that take 40 minutes to drive to that are out in the middle of NOWHERE (I've done this as a test to see if I can pass as not being gay) and I've NOT HEARD ANYTHING that resembles what I hear 9 out of 10 times I go to somewhere with people who resemble the hip-hop culture say in a matter of 15 minutes. Don't try to tell me that hip-hop culture isn't EXTREMELY anti-gay. Being non-masculine is the ultimate in being the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to hip-hop culture.

Can you name A SINGLE gay hip-hop artist? You can't? Why not? I can name TONS of gay artists from other styles--why not HIP HOP? No, I can't name songs that say "I want to screw you in the ass"--or "why can't we treat gay people better", but I can name lots of gay artists.

Category:Gay musicians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read it and weep.

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Lucifer Baphomet

Hmmm....
Yup.. I find a lot of Rap dull and monotonous.. but when it shines... it shines.
Yes there are several bad Rap acts.
There are a lot of crap bands in most genres.
You just seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Hmmm
Public Enemy
NWA
Jesus.. the great grandaddy of Rap Gil Scott Heron was ALL about social issues.

Currentlt theres 4/25th... you probably haven't heard of them..
theyre so relevant the pentagon keeps trying to silence them.

And since when did music need to be striving for positive social change to be good
I don't see a lot of that in any genre.

Fmeh

The problem I have is the homophobic and the misogynistic aspects, as well as the promotion of violence and the "homie" mentality that makes it so people can say anything without recourse because if someone says something back, they can just threaten them with their homies.

Like I asked Joseph: Can you name a gay hip-hop artist? How about a gay rap artist? If the whole genre is not anti-gay and misogynistic beyond any other culture that's promoted by the entertainment industry, how about some proof? If you can't name a gay rap or hip-hop artist, you HAVE no proof.

Unless of course you think that misogyny is a good thing and that it's GOOD for society to destroy 40 years of progress?

Lucifer Baphomet

Gay Hip Hop

Gay hiphop links - the gay rapper

Fmeh

Okay, I did not know this. However, none of the artists that I saw are anyone that has made it ANYWHERE in mainstream, that I know of. I'm going to have to look at lot of those artists up to see if ANY of them can be bought at normal music stores. If not--it still shows that there's a problem in the scene.

The text in the first link you gave still supports my argument that the scene is still generally VERY homophobic to the point where these artists have to worry quite a bit.

I'm GLAD that maybe the scene is changing. This is good news. Very good news. Thanks for those links. It gives me hope that maybe I won't have to live in fear as much in the future.

Lucifer Baphomet

Glad to be of service, sir.
And no one should have to live in fear over their sexuality.
I know that people still do, but we can all hope for the day when people just see people as people... regardless of race, sex, sexual preference, or gender.

Fmeh

I definitely look forward to that kind of thing.

Maybe you or someone else could clue me in on this:

When there are a group of people like that in a public place--what REALLY IS the likeliness of a beat-up scene, like in the parking lot or something, if I was to defend myself verbally if comments were made to me? How about if they weren't necessarily to me, but they're saying it loud enough for an entire establishment to hear it, and I was sick of hearing it and said something in retort?

If they ARE in a gang, which there's really no way of telling the difference between people in a gang and people who just glorify the gangster lifestyle, how likely are they to do something awful over something like this? Most people I know take the route of "just ignore them and they won't hurt you".

When I was in Portland, I knew a LOT of flamboyantly gay very feminine gay people, and I knew SEVERAL who were violently mugged by people who one would describe as "gangish"--the whole gangster garb and mannerisms thing--violent to where my friends ended up in the hospital. How common is this? Should I expect this sort of thing out of everyone that carries themselves that way who like using the word "faggot" a lot?

Is there a reasonable time to worry? Or should I not even worry about it because generally I'm usually the last person people guess would be gay?

Briana Dawson

- Rex Harrison - rapper, My Fair Lady, 1964.
I would not call all of his "singing", singing as it was very much "talking" the words - what we now call rapping

- West Side Story - Lots of rapping in this - and singing, but definitely a lot of "talking the lyrics" aka rapping.

There are plenty of rappers in our history before the term "rap" was ever coined.

Sarah Nerd

Hey I remember my grandma saying something to this effect to my cousin when I was a kid. Old people never get it do they?

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www.SarahNerd.com
http://www.your2ndplace.com/sarahnerd

Clancy Sullivan

Nope, they never do! Hee-haw!

I guess Daisy's up in her...70? Poor, old lady. We still loves ya, you old bag!



j/k. You know I'm kidding, Daisy. We still need you to disconnect HAL 9000!

Lucifer Baphomet

Jimmy Somerville grew up in Castlemilk.. one of the roughest schemes in Glasgow.

A hash dealer I knew there grew up with Jimmy
Jimmy was VERY openly gay.
Yes.. he got in a few fights over it, apparantly thats how he sustained his scar.
I was told the guy who did it came off worse though.

Wee Jimmy Somerville was a "heidbanger" as we say here.
That probably saved his neck.

I wish i could advise you on this Fmeh....
I've never had problems with anyones sexuality myself, hell I used to take my girlfriend of many years ago to one of the many gay clubs in Glasgow to avoid the whole getting into fights with assholes that persistantly harrassed her.

None of my gay friends were ever assaulted over it as far as I'm aware, if they were they never told me.

That sort of scenario you've painted for me is just so alien to me.

Lucifer Baphomet

Don't forget Gil Scott Heron.

The revolution will not be televised.

Sarah Nerd

I hope you read the joking tone in my comment to. But...I seriously do remember her bitching that rap wasn't music to my cousin, so I figured I'd just recycle the response I was thinking as a kid.

Cindy Claveau

The key difference here is that the yuppie kid who blew 2k on a guitar usually isn't living in the inner city, belongs to a street gang and has had several of his friends killed in drive-by shootings. The difference is that rap music has grown up out of a culture of violence and oppression, and has ironically become part of the problem.

I understand that many rap artists have tried to change things for their old neighborhoods (I can think of a couple I've heard of who have built new community centers and outreach programs). Some of the music actually laments the situation.

But let's face it. When 70% of black babies are born out of wedlock, don't you wonder about the effects of hip-hop's blatant misogyny? When over half of our prison population is black, and some of the most famous of the rap artists are either dead from gunshots or sitting in prison, don't you have to wonder how much impact the music has had in glorifying violence? When Eminem calls his mother a "stupid bitch", don't you cringe just a little bit?

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Sometimes, "I hit it with my axe" is the best solution.

MissKillian Barbosa

Help.. Help..

The scary rappers are coming to get me and ruin society!
Darn them..darn them all to heck!

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Silly Ol' Killy Dilly

Asher Bertrand

I'll save you. Just as soon as I get done dancing.

Asher Bertrand

My advice? Seriously? Just don't go to Denny's. Really. I was almost beat up there, too. Why? Some guy was just drunk and looking for a fight. White guy, dumb and ugly. No rap involved. Unfortunately, no restaurant manager involved, either. I don't know why they run their restaurants like a prison yard.

MissKillian Barbosa

I'm sorry baby, tell me who it was and I'll get some Gold toothed hoodlum rappers who'll run them over with their Cadillac escalade bought with drug money!!

Daisy Rimbaud

You could indeed.

Well, it may be a "valid form of expression", but a forum post is also a valid form of expression. Doesn't make it artistic, whether you like it or not.

MissKillian Barbosa

It kinda make me itch when people try to place a fence around artistic expression. Art isn't always pretty.. Art is NOT a concrete quantifiable thing (that's called calculus and some say math is art so nertz to that too).. it is abstract it is many layered, it is many things, it is loved it is reviled, it is in the eye of the beholder and it is available to all.. Whether YOU like it or not.

I don't care for Piero Manzoni's "Merde de Artiste" - Actual SHIT of the Artist..in a can! But who am I to say it isnt art? who are you?

Edav Nomad

Blondie had the first rap song on MTV:


The last rap group I liked was Run-DMC.

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Joseph Worthington

Wow...two stereotypes in one. Who said the kid buying the guitar was a yuppie? And who said all rap fans live in the inner city? I certainly don't belong to any street gangs. Never have, and much to old to join one now even if I wanted to. Never had a friend killed in a drive by shooting either.

As for Fmeh....people SILL love Dean-o and Frankie, despite what they did or allegedly did in the past, and the James Bond movies ARE still very misogynistic. Perhaps not quite as overtly as they once were...but you better believe they still are.

And while I may never have been the brunt of verbal or physical assault based on nothing more than my sexuality, I have been assaulted both verbally and physically for no other reason than I was there. I have friends who are totally outside the hip hop culture who're the same. Some people are just assholes and looking for a fight. Some have the gang mentality, some don't. Growing up I was jumped on, physically mind you, for being the fat kid because they knew I couldn't fight back. Now a days I'm "assaulted" based on looks. After all, I dress a certain way, therefor I must be a certain way. Or I speak a certain way, therefor I must feel a certain way about women. Or I like a certain style of music, therefor I must employ a certain mentality in my day to day activities.

I've resolved myself to stop picking on punk, rock, metal, and what have you for the sake of my arguments because frankly, that's not what this is about. It's not about music. It's not about the mentality of a group of people. It's about the preconceived, prepackaged, prearranged PRODUCT that's being pushed upon people. And that's all it is....a product. Honestly, for you and others to sit there and tell me that my little brother, my cousins, my friends, my coworkers, and myself are all gay bashing, women hating, bling wearing, crap music listening to, gang bangers from the inner city who all fit in to this nice neat little mold is heartbreaking. It really is.

Half the people I know who really like rap are women. And half of them are probably gay. One of them is this little suburban white girl whom I call that because she's short, white, and lives in the suburbs. By and large my friends and relatives aren't into the flashy jewelry, nor do any of us have cars that bounce, nor do we run around "spending our life savings" on stupid shit. We get up, go to work, go grocery shopping, visit book stores, complain about the weather (It's cold here in Chicago), watch tv, pay our bills, go to the doctor.......we live our lives just like anyone else.

Now then, if your experiences with the hip-hop culture have been less than favorable, I do apologize. But to lump everyone into this little box where all the things you see on tv and hear on the radio must be true is just plain offensive. You know what? Call me a misogynist. Call me a retard who's obsessed with bling and Fat Bottomed Girls. Call me whatever stereotype you want to associate with the hip-hop culture and lifestyle. But leave my friends, family, co-workers, and all the other people out there who just so happen to like the culture without sharing in this very limited view of it alone.











Except for John Cena. I hate that guy. Seriously. You can take him to the woodshed if you want. Hell, I'll help.

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Do what now?

MissKillian Barbosa

Jellin Pico

I'm not 100% sure I can agree with this. I believe Fmeh has a point here about this rap music promoting and influencing the culture.

Let's take a trip in the WayBack machine ..



to ...



Useful thing this hindsight. Looking back it's easy to see that while certainly, the music arose from the culture itself, but it was the music that grew beyond the hippie culture that spread the message and promoted the culture to people who would have otherwise never experienced it.

The music became the very medium that the culture used to spread it's ideas, and it took on a life of it's own. It shaped and sculptured the culture that created it.

Without the driving force of the music, hippie culture would have died out early in a cloud of smoke and body odor.

Now, rap, would the gangsta culture be anywhere near as prominent today if the music industry did not promote it through the music itself? Would this culture be a source of influence and wealth without the media influence?

I think not. I believe it would have faded out by now, little more than corner curiosities between drive by's.

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Dolphins ... The Smug Bastards of the Sea

Joseph Worthington

Indeed, but this just illustrates that it's not the music or the culture itself that causes all these problems, but the rampant promoting of it by media. Most of the negative stereotypes that arise from any culture, be it music based or not, arise from the blatant showcasing of only a small segment of that culture. In the past few months I've gotten to know quite a Muslim, born and raised in Morocco, who's a devout follower of his faith, and he doesn't hate gay people. He openly hangs out with them. He's honest enough to say he doesn't believe in it, and that back home such things are punished, but he does not hate gay people.

Cultures are more than just the tidbits of them that we see on television and hear on the radio. Cultures are comprised more of just a set of ideals and actions. They are comprised of a great many individuals who each lend their own experiences and perspective to a greater tapestry.