SLUniverse Forums

Asher Bertrand · 01-11-2008, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mukatsuku

as I mentioned, I believe part of that is allowing prisoners luxuries and the ability to mingle with other criminals.

Keep them in a solitary room for 1 year, rather than a hotel for 20 years and they'd feel a lot more deterred from doing it again.

I'm really not sure. People who repeatedly commit crimes have trouble with impulse control. I don't think they're the sort to think very far in advance.

Clancy Sullivan · 01-11-2008, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mukatsuku

as I mentioned, I believe part of that is allowing prisoners luxuries and the ability to mingle with other criminals.

Keep them in a solitary room for 1 year, rather than a hotel for 20 years and they'd feel a lot more deterred from doing it again.

That would not be possible, costs would be too high. Most prisoners must be held in communal-style prison quarters.

The problem can never be resolved at the end of the path that criminals follow, you have to offer these human beings another path early in life, one that leads to a normal life that gives them an income and some kind of hope for an increasingly better life as they work for it. But, in order to do that, society would almost have to be turned on it's head. So, the ruling class accepts the situation as it is in order to carry on with making the maximum amount of money possible. Their method is to remove a number of violent criminals from society and either kill them or lock them up for a long time so that they cannot interfere with "law-abiding" citizens too much. And so continues the great fraud of a balanced and progressive society under capitalism.

My explanation above is very simplified, of course. But the topic of this thread is irrational and I can't justify spending a whole lot of time going over old ground. Killing people who commit murder doesn't make any sense if you make death the penalty in order to prevent the crime. No one here, or anywhere, can provide evidence to prove my assertion is wrong. So, whenever someone calls for an execution, and in the same breath implies or outrightly says that doing so would send a message to future criminals, that person is usually full of shit or mentally disturbed. In either case, can't be wasting too much time on them, I got Josh thread trolling to attend to!

Chalice Yao · 01-11-2008, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serenity

Gee... cynic much?

Serenity

Naw, I'm a happy little camper.

I just consider the sometimes reported annual statstics of rape, murder and crime all over the world, then I consider that those are official numbers and the real figure is probably quite higher, then I consider that those numbers aren't actually from every country in the world, and that those listed are countries with definite laws against those things in place, due to the things being reported. Then I take that possible total dark amount, try to imagine what it'd be like without any laws in place, add to it all the killings with are 'justified' by some laws, and just can't consider uncontrolled human nature as civilized and noble as it is made out to be at times

Or consider how sometimes at big supermarket/store openings, people get trampled into a hospital state (or worse) by an suddenly uncaring, wild mass of which most would probably never commit a crime (or god forbid murder). Or how (quite interesting) staged tests have shown that most people'd simply pass by if they see somebody laying passed out on the street. The more public, frequented or crowded a place is, the worse that figure becomes until somebody steps up and helps, ironically. The monkeysphere is something wonderful.

Briana Dawson · 01-11-2008, 07:23 AM

Clancy reverses his position on the Death Penalty:

[4:06] Briana Dawson: OK TP ME

[4:06] Clancy Sullivan: k...
[4:08] Briana Dawson: So, Clancy, about the Death Penalty...
[4:08] Briana Dawson: my poor little laptop is smokin...
[4:09] Clancy Sullivan: well...I have considered your argument Briana, and I have to admit I have been wrong all these years and even though the DP does not deter crime (as studies have shown), I think we should kill S.O.B.s who toss babies off of bridges.
[4:09] Aww thank you Clancy...I guess I will let you photograph me now since you are seeing things my way.

Muffie May · 01-11-2008, 10:00 AM

I completely believe in the death penalty. The guy should fry like bacon.

If we look at the history of crime and punishment, we've become so fucking lenient it's not even funny. Case by case basis...and in this case he's a psycho and doesn't deserve to live.

Mukatsuku · 01-11-2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clancy Sullivan

That would not be possible, costs would be too high. Most prisoners must be held in communal-style prison quarters.

The problem can never be resolved at the end of the path that criminals follow, you have to offer these human beings another path early in life, one that leads to a normal life that gives them an income and some kind of hope for an increasingly better life as they work for it. But, in order to do that, society would almost have to be turned on it's head. So, the ruling class accepts the situation as it is in order to carry on with making the maximum amount of money possible. Their method is to remove a number of violent criminals from society and either kill them or lock them up for a long time so that they cannot interfere with "law-abiding" citizens too much. And so continues the great fraud of a balanced and progressive society under capitalism.

My explanation above is very simplified, of course. But the topic of this thread is irrational and I can't justify spending a whole lot of time going over old ground. Killing people who commit murder doesn't make any sense if you make death the penalty in order to prevent the crime. No one here, or anywhere, can provide evidence to prove my assertion is wrong. So, whenever someone calls for an execution, and in the same breath implies or outrightly says that doing so would send a message to future criminals, that person is usually full of shit or mentally disturbed. In either case, can't be wasting too much time on them, I got Josh thread trolling to attend to!

How would keeping a prisoner in a single room with no human contact, just handing them food and removing waste be more costly than the current system of keeping people in prison indefinitely but also giving them TV, films, sports, games, social activities, etc?

There is no possible way it could be more expensive. Shit - I could afford to keep you in a box for a year right now, but I could not afford to give you the lifestyle a prisoner gets in the US and the UK right now.

Don Mill · 01-11-2008, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mukatsuku

How would keeping a prisoner in a single room with no human contact, just handing them food and removing waste be more costly than the current system of keeping people in prison indefinitely but also giving them TV, films, sports, games, social activities, etc?

There is no possible way it could be more expensive. Shit - I could afford to keep you in a box for a year right now, but I could not afford to give you the lifestyle a prisoner gets in the US and the UK right now.

I would assume that is a matter of physical space., building individual cells for everyone... tho I might be totally mistaken

Briana Dawson · 01-11-2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mukatsuku

How would keeping a prisoner in a single room with no human contact, just handing them food and removing waste be more costly than the current system of keeping people in prison indefinitely but also giving them TV, films, sports, games, social activities, etc?

There is no possible way it could be more expensive. Shit - I could afford to keep you in a box for a year right now, but I could not afford to give you the lifestyle a prisoner gets in the US and the UK right now.

Well what happens is that when a prisoner is on Death Row, they get A LOT of appeals, which require expensive lawyers and court fee's. That alone can equal thousands of dollars.

Should it be more expensive to kill people on Death Row? No. I think the entire process is bass-ackwards if it cost more to put a murderous human down than it does to keep them alive for 50+ years. Seriously, this process should be swift in cases like this or when people admit to their guilt or there is direct evidence (not circumstantial) against them.

With that said however, I do not think people convicted with circumstantial evidence should receive the death penalty since 1 in 10 prisoners on death row are wrongly convicted. And 1 is 1 too many.

But this guy here is guilty and should should be claymored.

Cocoanut Koala · 01-11-2008, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clancy Sullivan

This is a rational view that is supported by reality, the opposite of what the pro-death penalty folks have to offer.

Statistics and a number of well-known scientific studies prove that a death penalty doesn't deter people from murdering, and advocates of the death penalty do not dispute this. They just ignore it.

Egads, you do know everything, don't you.

And you most assuredly enjoy putting people in little boxes LOWER than the little box you're in.

I'm not going to go researching all this various "proof" right now, but I can assure you that with my scientific background, I would either (a) debunk a lot of it and poke holes in a whole lot of it, (b) change my mind about it, or (c) a combination of the two. And likely MUCH more of (a) than the other two.

But thank God I don't throw everyone who doesn't think as I do in some sort of a box and then insult them all to hell, as is your wont.

Which - to use a phrase of your own, I believe - you apparently do "to make you feel better about yourself."

coco

Dnate Mars · 01-11-2008, 12:32 PM

Hmm.... I am sorry if this was already posted, but it seems he is now saying this was a forced confession and he really didn't do it. Does this change anyone's mind?

Cocoanut Koala · 01-11-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Mill

I would assume that is a matter of physical space., building individual cells for everyone... tho I might be totally mistaken

Not just that.

What Muka describes is solitary. And it's also getting into "cruel and unusual punishment" territory.

So there are actually quite a few reasons not to toss em in the dungeon a la the old days. Remember, too, crimes aren't equal, and shouldn't have equal punishments. And there is the consideration of rehabilitation - you don't want to make everybody come out worse than when they went in.

Moreover, solitary needs to be available as a punishment for further acting up while IN prison.

coco

Cocoanut Koala · 01-11-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dnate Mars

Hmm.... I am sorry if this was already posted, but it seems he is now saying this was a forced confession and he really didn't do it. Does this change anyone's mind?

Yeah, I read that.

No.

coco

P.S. Though I would be thrilled if it turned out to be true!

Clancy Sullivan · 01-11-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocoanut Koala

Egads, you do know everything, don't you....o

When I was a young lad the doctors would say to my parents, in a thick, Irish brogue, "Your boy Clancy knows everything, God bless the Sullivan family!"

Asher Bertrand · 01-11-2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dnate Mars

Hmm.... I am sorry if this was already posted, but it seems he is now saying this was a forced confession and he really didn't do it. Does this change anyone's mind?

... right.

Hey, still no kids. If they're alive, let him show where.

Serenity · 01-11-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocoanut Koala

I'm not going to go researching all this various "proof" right now, but I can assure you that with my scientific background, I would either (a) debunk a lot of it and poke holes in a whole lot of it, (b) change my mind about it, or (c) a combination of the two. And likely MUCH more of (a) than the other two.

I don't have the info handy either but back in HS (granted 15 years now) I debated this topic and this is what I remember:

In death penalty states there was no substantial drop in capital crimes over non dp states.

Criminals convicted of capital crimes reported in interviews that the thought of the death penalty (good or bad) when committing their crime.

Those are the two biggest "anti death penalty" points trooped out and I'm pretty sure they're solid.

But.... most proponents of the death penalty do not cite deterence as a need. They do cite the need to deal with criminals beyond hope, "justice" and other reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briana

I think the entire process is bass-ackwards if it cost more to put a murderous human down than it does to keep them alive for 50+ years. Seriously, this process should be swift in cases like this or when people admit to their guilt or there is direct evidence (not circumstantial) against them.

With that said however, I do not think people convicted with circumstantial evidence should receive the death penalty since 1 in 10 prisoners on death row are wrongly convicted. And 1 is 1 too many.

Well.. the catch is that "what is circumstantial" tends to be rather amorphic. In cases where someone is willing to confess fully to a crime, maybe not, but what do we do about verifying that confessions are not "forced"? What do we do to be sure that someone's not overstating involvement?

I see the need for swift honest justice, but there is a balance point.

Serenity

Mukatsuku · 01-11-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocoanut Koala

Not just that.

What Muka describes is solitary. And it's also getting into "cruel and unusual punishment" territory.

So there are actually quite a few reasons not to toss em in the dungeon a la the old days. Remember, too, crimes aren't equal, and shouldn't have equal punishments. And there is the consideration of rehabilitation - you don't want to make everybody come out worse than when they went in.

Moreover, solitary needs to be available as a punishment for further acting up while IN prison.

coco

Cruel and unusual punishment only because we're so kind to prisoners now - we treat murderers and rapists as though they are human!

And of course, each crime would have a different length of time spent in the cells.

As for the space and resources to build individual cells - they'd be small, so wouldn't take up much room

not as small as a room in a capsule hotel of course

then again, that might be an idea.

Edav Nomad · 01-11-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mukatsuku

As for the space and resources to build individual cells - they'd be small, so wouldn't take up much room

not as small as a room in a capsule hotel of course

then again, that might be an idea.

Or be like the movie Demolition Man where they freeze them then reprogram their minds not to do bad things.

Mukatsuku · 01-11-2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edav Nomad

Or be like the movie Demolition Man where they freeze them then reprogram their minds not to do bad things.

If only

we can do the clockwork orange thingy

ludoveco treatment

Edav Nomad · 01-11-2008, 11:13 PM

I was just watching the local news and they said that they used a sonar and it was very successful. Which I think means they might have found the bodies of the children.

They are going back in the morning to search in that area.

CoyoteMomiji · 01-11-2008, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edav Nomad

I was just watching the local news and they said that they used a sonar and it was very successful. Which I think means they might have found the bodies of the children.

They are going back in the morning to search in that area.

Shit.

Well, it's closure, at least. A lot of people don't get that.

01-11-2008, 10:00 AM	#130 (permalink)
Muffie May Slippery When Wet Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In an Igloo Posts: 392 SL Join Date: 10/15/2006 Business: Dysorder SLShopper Ads: 42 My Mood:	I completely believe in the death penalty. The guy should fry like bacon. If we look at the history of crime and punishment, we've become so fucking lenient it's not even funny. Case by case basis...and in this case he's a psycho and doesn't deserve to live. __________________ DYSORDER-Male & Female Skins, Damaged/Emo Skins & Tattoos, Clothes and more! Visit DYSORDER In World http://slurl.com/secondlife/Devils%20Pocket/132/48/33

01-11-2008, 12:32 PM	#135 (permalink)
Dnate Mars Tastes like purple Waiting for the right time Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Home Posts: 8,078 Funny Bubbles Champion! Wordtris Champion! SL Join Date: 01/27/2004 Business: Scripter for hire My Mood:	Hmm.... I am sorry if this was already posted, but it seems he is now saying this was a forced confession and he really didn't do it. Does this change anyone's mind? __________________ SLU Clubhouse - Open 24/7 Visit at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Tan/138/25/25 <Duke Chaparral> On panther paws he stalks radiating mystery and cacophony from his bunching feline muscles as he slowly stalks his Vertiprey.... <Duke Chaparral> tearing her from her employment shackles with his razor like claws he drags her off to his azure cougar den...

01-11-2008, 07:23 AM	#129 (permalink)
Briana Dawson Senior Member Loved by printesa Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Springfield, Illinois Posts: 3,432 SL Join Date: September 23, 2003 Business: N&B Exports My Mood: Awards: 1	Clancy reverses his position on the Death Penalty: [4:06] Briana Dawson: OK TP ME [4:06] Clancy Sullivan: k... [4:08] Briana Dawson: So, Clancy, about the Death Penalty... [4:08] Briana Dawson: my poor little laptop is smokin... [4:09] Clancy Sullivan: well...I have considered your argument Briana, and I have to admit I have been wrong all these years and even though the DP does not deter crime (as studies have shown), I think we should kill S.O.B.s who toss babies off of bridges. [4:09] Aww thank you Clancy...I guess I will let you photograph me now since you are seeing things my way.

01-11-2008, 11:13 PM	#144 (permalink)
Edav Nomad Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama) Posts: 2,584 SL Join Date: June 12, 2003 XBOX Leaderboard: 3^rd My Mood:	I was just watching the local news and they said that they used a sonar and it was very successful. Which I think means they might have found the bodies of the children. They are going back in the morning to search in that area.