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Psyke Phaeton · 10-27-2008, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stroker Serpentine

Maybe it's just the conspiracy theorist in me, but does anyone else believe they are intentionally killing the rental markets so they can sell mainland?

Open Space Sims=Death of SL

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. - Robert J. Hanlon

LL made a mistake in asking people to regulate themselves.

Dancien Graves · 10-27-2008, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarKirby Magojiro

They had it coming. I see openspace malls everywhere, Hell, I even rent at one, despite my strong desire not to, because my competitors do.. Since they introduced openspaces, people have been abusing them constantly. Nobody listens when you tell them they're misusing it, and lagging everyone else down.

I think it's a rather excessive package of measures to be taking all at once, specifically the not allowing owner and paor to be different any longer. But overall, I think this will trigger renewed growth in rental in normal, full size sims. Openspaces now give /4 of the prims, for more than 1/4 of the price, so they won't look too attractive to renters.

May I state for the record that I FUCKING HATE openspaces. Not a day goes by when I get customer complaints about my products not working, because they're trying to use them in a piece of shit sim where everything takes exponentially longer to respond

As somebody who rented an openspace for quite some time and kept it under the prim limit and didn't abuse it......and I'm sure I speak for a good number of the community who also does the same...when I say..

GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU FUCKING PRICK!

Isablan Neva · 10-27-2008, 09:37 PM

Can one of you techie types explain whether or not it is possible to "throttle" simulator usage? If over use of resources were an issue, couldn't they limit openspaces to the 25% of allowed load?

Of course, Stroker brings up an excellent point, too. Might be that Mainland is actually more profitable for LL...

Kristian · 10-27-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancien Graves

As somebody who rented an openspace for quite some time and kept it under the prim limit and didn't abuse it......and I'm sure I speak for a good number of the community who also does the same...when I say..

GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU FUCKING PRICK!

Dancien, I had a similarly visceral reaction to WK's post when I first read it, but after careful re-reading I saw that his tone was pretty moderate. He makes it clear that he doesn't like OpenSims, and for what he does -- complex scripted objects -- they are, in fact, a piece of shit. I know, because I'm working with a complex scripted objects in one.

I'm aghast. I'm renting from Sarah, and money is about to get *very* tight for me but I love the ruined volcano I have now and don't want to lose it because of LLs inability to adapt to their market.

Aki Shichiroji · 10-27-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isablan Neva

Of course, Stroker brings up an excellent point, too. Might be that Mainland is actually more profitable for LL...

Excuse my french (and really, my anger isn't directed to you, but to LL), but where were they when the adfarmers and extortionists were fucking it over (and still are)?

The mainland would never have been in such a pinch had they actually *done* something long ago about the ad farming problem and done something to keep folks actually interested in it. By making Openspaces more accessible with individual purchase and additional prims, they practically DROVE people off the mainland and left a ghost town behind.

Gabriele Graves · 10-27-2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah Nerd

I can't begin to describe how angry I am right now. When they started the single open space thing it forced me to convert a few of my full sims to them and sell two because no one wanted full estates anymore. Now with this increase they will be worthless. No one will want to rent them and there will be no resale value. I'll probably just have to take some off the grid and lose even more than I already have (and it's been a lot). A 67% increase is fucking insane and uncalled for. I have a few slow moving open spaces. They're gone now I guess. I really feel like with this move, I am going to loose the estate end of my business. I guess I'll just stick with mainland.

I am sorry that all this has a bad effect on your business Sarah, it is always the honest and good people that get bitten the hardest.

I do feel with all this though that LL is not the one to blame (this time). They made it very clear what uses they should be used for imo.

It is the unscrupulous land resellers/renters that saw an opportunity for lots of profit who have screwed the market for everyone (as usual I might add).

* If telling people how they should be used (correctly) and enforcing that as part of a convenant on every single openspace had been done then likelihood is that very few openspaces would be resold/rented as the only people who would be interested in getting them would be people who wanted them as true openspaces (in the LL definition).

* If these unscrupulous people had not sold them knowing full well that malls, heavily scripted devices and large mansions would be built on them then this problem would not have occured in my opinion.

* If the rules had been followed then the need to convert full prim islands to openspaces just to compete would likely be unnecessary as most people would have stuck to reselling/renting full sims for the most part, there would have no alternative for most people - just like before.

So just like on the mainland where unscrupulous people ruin it for the rest, it has now happened for islands too.

The question is really when will LL get sick of unscrupulous people ruining stuff to get rich quick and start banning their asses?

Gigs · 10-27-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

**Openspace regions are possible by using one CPU kernel to simulate 4 times the usual amount of terrain. This means one CPU can give 4 * 65536 sqm (4 openspace regions supporting 3750 prims each). This also means that 4 openspace regions share computing resources as if they were one giant region. With this in mind, you may want to consider carefully before using an openspace region for a high-traffic or commercial venture. Malls, clubs or any crowd drawing establishment on your region may influence the experience of the other regions or vice-versa.***

This has been in the covenant of most of my openspaces for quite a while.

I agree, we were basically forced to convert... the market demanded it!

Darien Caldwell · 10-27-2008, 10:10 PM

LL has to share the blame for this. They actively pitched Openspaces as a way for Estates to make money:

Code:

 
[9:23]  ****** Linden: some folks are doing something interesting with OpenSpaces
[9:23]  ****** Linden: you know what those are?
[9:23]  You: no, i dont
[9:24]  ****** Linden: ok -- you have to own at least one regular island (which you do) in order to have openspaces
[9:24]  ****** Linden: they come in sets of 4
[9:24]  You: are you talking, the low prim, basicly ocean sets?
[9:24]  ****** Linden: size-wise, each one of them.... yes, that's what I'm talking about exactly
[9:24]  ****** Linden: setup & monthly *for the set* is the same as one regular region
[9:24]  ****** Linden: but here's what I'm seeing some island owners doing
[9:24]  ****** Linden: they'll rent out one entire one to one person
[9:25]  ****** Linden: for say $100 or $125 a month
[9:25]  ****** Linden: yes, it's only 1865ish prims...
[9:25]  ****** Linden: but the renter is getting All That Space
[9:25]  ****** Linden: and you're making $25 - $50 profit on each one

This was back in July 2007. It's not the only time I've seen LL pushing Openspaces as rental property. If they didn't want them used that way, they shouldn't have been promoting them that way.

Isablan Neva · 10-27-2008, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aki Shichiroji

Excuse my french (and really, my anger isn't directed to you, but to LL), but where were they when the adfarmers and extortionists were fucking it over (and still are)?

The mainland would never have been in such a pinch had they actually *done* something long ago about the ad farming problem and done something to keep folks actually interested in it. By making Openspaces more accessible with individual purchase and additional prims, they practically DROVE people off the mainland and left a ghost town behind.

I could not agree more.

All we can do is engage in random speculation as to why this is being handled this way. I can't believe there is no way to limit the openspace sims to the load they were designed to handle and resolve that part of the issue. But we also know from history that when residents abuse something LL has a tendency to just kill it altogether rather than fix it (see also Land, First and Bonus, Ratings.)

So, that suggests there is a something much bigger going on beyond the excessive load and misuse.

I'm kinda thinking engineered "correction" in the land market, but what they hell do I know...

Gabriele Graves · 10-27-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell

LL has to share the blame for this. They actively pitched Openspaces as a way for Estates to make money:

Code:

 
[9:23]  ****** Linden: some folks are doing something interesting with OpenSpaces
[9:23]  ****** Linden: you know what those are?
[9:23]  You: no, i dont
[9:24]  ****** Linden: ok -- you have to own at least one regular island (which you do) in order to have openspaces
[9:24]  ****** Linden: they come in sets of 4
[9:24]  You: are you talking, the low prim, basicly ocean sets?
[9:24]  ****** Linden: size-wise, each one of them.... yes, that's what I'm talking about exactly
[9:24]  ****** Linden: setup & monthly *for the set* is the same as one regular region
[9:24]  ****** Linden: but here's what I'm seeing some island owners doing
[9:24]  ****** Linden: they'll rent out one entire one to one person
[9:25]  ****** Linden: for say $100 or $125 a month
[9:25]  ****** Linden: yes, it's only 1865ish prims...
[9:25]  ****** Linden: but the renter is getting All That Space
[9:25]  ****** Linden: and you're making $25 - $50 profit on each one

This was back in July 2007. It's not the only time I've seen LL pushing Openspaces as rental property. If they didn't want them used that way, they shouldn't have been promoting them that way.

One thing that I have learned since I started SL (and thats not long against some of you older people) is that what one or two Lindens say in private chat is not necessarily policy.
Unless you are saying this was definitely a policy making Linden perhaps?

Gigs · 10-27-2008, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabriele Graves

One thing that I have learned since I started SL (and thats not long against some of you older people) is that what one or two Lindens say in private chat is not necessarily policy.
Unless you are saying this was definitely a policy making Linden perhaps?

Yeah, unless it was Jack, it doesn't really matter.

Malachi · 10-27-2008, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isablan Neva

Can one of you techie types explain whether or not it is possible to "throttle" simulator usage? If over use of resources were an issue, couldn't they limit openspaces to the 25% of allowed load?

There is a huge difference between what LL could do in principle and what they can or will actually do.

Of course it is possible, and anyone looking further than next week should have realized that resource usage should have been throttled by mechanism and not by simple suggestion that openspaces be "light use". The "abuse" (I love how LL throws that word around) of the openspaces is the direct result of LL not planning properly. And true to their nature, they are more than happy to pass the costs of their lack of foresight onto the customers.

Khamon · 10-27-2008, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigs

Yeah, unless it was Jack, it doesn't really matter.

Even if it was Jack it doesn't really matter. He's not a programmer or an accountant ergo has no authority to make or interpret policy at all.

I'm not angry Sarah; I'm finally completely painfully crushed. LL have worked hard to beat me into a bloody pulp beyond any recognition as a former user. They've executed their aggression with great alacrity.

We can all hold to the ray of sunshine that this makes Stroker and Warkirby happy. May their joy ever endure.

Oh and no Stroker, I don't think so. What I think is that Linden Lab don't possess the mentality to operate a viable virtual world economy. They're shooting in the dark and hitting their supporters square between the eyes. They don't even have enough common sense to impose covenants on their new Mainland Nautilus sims.

Darien Caldwell · 10-27-2008, 10:30 PM

It does matter because it's a Linden advising people to rent out Openspaces. Doesnt' matter if It's Jack, or anybody else. If that's not what the product is for, NOBODY should be offering it that way. To do it even once is to misrepresent the product to your customers.

If I bought a car and the salesman said it came with Gas for a year, it better damn well come with it. If someone came back later and said "well, he isnt the boss so it doesn't matter." That would be false. It would still be misrepresentation no matter who stated it, if it was used to persuede someone into closing a deal.

Gabriele Graves · 10-27-2008, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell

It does matter because it's a Linden advising people to rent out Openspaces. Doesnt' matter if It's Jack, or anybody else. If that's not what the product is for, NOBODY should be offering it that way. To do it even once is to misrepresent the product to your customers.

If I bought a car and the salesman said it came with Gas for a year, it better damn well come with it. If someone came back later and said "well, he isnt the boss so it doesn't matter." That would be false. It would still be misrepresentation no matter who stated it, if it was used to persuede someone into closing a deal.

Oh come on, Janitor Linden is not the same as Salesperson Linden or policy-making Linden at all.

Private chat is not where a product is being offered, it is in the public eye where everyone can see it and the public official statement was clear.

Did you ask why the blog post seemed to be saying something contrary to what this Linden was saying? What was their answer?

If Janitor Linden tried selling a car from the lot and SalePerson Linden found out then not only would your deal not be honoured but Janitor Linden is likely to get their marching orders.

Khamon · 10-27-2008, 10:39 PM

It doesn't matter what any Linden says. We've been lied to by every executive Linden that's ever worked at the Lab, and several janitors as well.

Siyu Suen · 10-27-2008, 10:40 PM

SL Forums

Quote:

Originally Posted by what I said over there

Surely regulation on usage rather than increased fees would be the solution to abuse. If there are problems caused by more than a certain number of avatars on the sim, don't allow the agent limit to be changed. Maybe make any script running at over .025 automatically stop running?

Punishing those who HAVE followed the intended usage and HAVE followed the rules is not going to encourage people to continue to do business with you, and I imagine there will be many people dropping their open sims come Jan 1st. Why isn't it possible to sanction and regulate the abusers who, as the blog entry said, caused this change?

I don't see much of a difference between an open sim being used for a residential area and being used as a flat space of open sea. On either, there might be three or four people on it at any one time, a minimum of running scripts, and of course the prim limit of 3750. Is there really such a difference if the land is raised and there's a house, rather than sea weed and ocean?

If the looming global depression is the cause for these price changes, just say it. As of now, I agree with the cries of "bait and switch", because to have believed at the beginning that no one would test the limits of these sims is the definition of naivete. But what most people would do is squelch those that abuse their privileges, not slap an entire population of consumers with what can only be seen as a punishment for others' crimes.

Darien Caldwell · 10-27-2008, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabriele Graves

Oh come on, Janitor Linden is not the same as Salesperson Linden or policy-making Linden at all.

Private chat is not where a product is being offered, it is in the public eye where everyone can see it and the public official statement was clear.

Did you ask why the blog post seemed to be saying something contrary to what this Linden was saying? What was their answer?

If Janitor Linden tried selling a car from the lot and SalePerson Linden found out then not only would your deal not be honoured but Janitor Linden is likely to get their marching orders.

I'm not going to reveal who it is, as they could easily be fired. I will say it was a member of the Concierge Team, if they don't know what an Openspace is for, Then nobody at LL knows. Far from a supposed Janitor.

Gigs · 10-27-2008, 10:43 PM

Well that's the bottom line, they are taking what amounts to a technical flaw (their inability to properly partition a server 16 ways, something that many many VPS hosts do all over the web) and trying to claim it's a social problem.

They are punishing estate owners because they can't figure out how to fix a bug.

http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2219

Dancien Graves · 10-27-2008, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabriele Graves

Oh come on, Janitor Linden is not the same as Salesperson Linden or policy-making Linden at all.

.

At this point fuck all Lindens. They have continued to screw us over and over and over. If you're not with us, you're against us. And the Lindens have clearly demonstrated they're against us.

Isablan Neva · 10-27-2008, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell

LL has to share the blame for this. They actively pitched Openspaces as a way for Estates to make money:

Code:

 
[9:23]  ****** Linden: some folks are doing something interesting with OpenSpaces
[9:23]  ****** Linden: you know what those are?
[9:23]  You: no, i dont
[9:24]  ****** Linden: ok -- you have to own at least one regular island (which you do) in order to have openspaces
[9:24]  ****** Linden: they come in sets of 4
[9:24]  You: are you talking, the low prim, basicly ocean sets?
[9:24]  ****** Linden: size-wise, each one of them.... yes, that's what I'm talking about exactly
[9:24]  ****** Linden: setup & monthly *for the set* is the same as one regular region
[9:24]  ****** Linden: but here's what I'm seeing some island owners doing
[9:24]  ****** Linden: they'll rent out one entire one to one person
[9:25]  ****** Linden: for say $100 or $125 a month
[9:25]  ****** Linden: yes, it's only 1865ish prims...
[9:25]  ****** Linden: but the renter is getting All That Space
[9:25]  ****** Linden: and you're making $25 - $50 profit on each one

This was back in July 2007. It's not the only time I've seen LL pushing Openspaces as rental property. If they didn't want them used that way, they shouldn't have been promoting them that way.

You know, I bet those sims were fine as single rentals when used that way. Sets of 4 with only 1865 prims each. Not any where near as attractive an investment and get rich quick in SL scheme. LL fucked it up when they allowed single sales with the higher prim limit.

Gabriele Graves · 10-27-2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siyu Suen

SL Forums

There are likely to be far more scripts in a large prim build even for a house than there is for water and landscaping.

Fact is you are being punished, not because you were responsible but because many people reselling/renting openspaces were irresponsible. This has now caught up with them and LL has used a broad brush for the problem instead of punishing those who did wrong.

How can it be bait and switch when their intended use was declared up front?

I feel very bad for those who did use them responsibly, but I have not one ounce of sympathy for those who abused them or let them be abused after reselling/renting them.

Gabriele Graves · 10-27-2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell

I'm not going to reveal who it is, as they could easily be fired. I will say it was a member of the Concierge Team, if they don't know what an Openspace is for, Then nobody at LL knows. Far from a supposed Janitor.

If they could be fired for saying what they said then they were not supposed to say it in the first place is my feeling.

Gigs · 10-27-2008, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabriele Graves

If they could be fired for saying what they said then they were not supposed to say it in the first place is my feeling.

I, for one, don't want an environment where Lindens can't speak their mind in informal chat and be held responsible for every offhand remark. That would be a good way to shut down the little bits of real communication LL actually still does.

Gabriele Graves · 10-27-2008, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancien Graves

At this point fuck all Lindens. They have continued to screw us over and over and over. If you're not with us, you're against us. And the Lindens have clearly demonstrated they're against us.

You're angry and I completely understand that and have a great deal of sympathy but why no outrage about the way land resellers/renters misrepresented them? They carry far more responsibilty here as they could have stepped in and told people they were not using them as intended.

I *do* think LL's solution is harsh for those who tried to play by the rules, that is where LL is at fault and is hurting everyone for those who have abused. Why do they not just give everyone a certain time to start to use the openspace resonably, run another report and take offline openspaces from those who have refused to play nice?
That would have been my solution.

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10-27-2008, 09:37 PM	#28 (permalink)
Isablan Neva Bohemian in Paradise Eggs Benedict Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: California: we do disasters right! Posts: 1,665 SL Join Date: November, 2004 Business: Sky Dreams, Tenth Muse Furniture SLShopper Ads: 2 My Mood:	Can one of you techie types explain whether or not it is possible to "throttle" simulator usage? If over use of resources were an issue, couldn't they limit openspaces to the 25% of allowed load? Of course, Stroker brings up an excellent point, too. Might be that Mainland is actually more profitable for LL...

10-27-2008, 10:30 PM	#39 (permalink)
Darien Caldwell Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cali Posts: 98 SL Join Date: 10/12/2006 Business: Dari's Haus BDSM My Mood:	It does matter because it's a Linden advising people to rent out Openspaces. Doesnt' matter if It's Jack, or anybody else. If that's not what the product is for, NOBODY should be offering it that way. To do it even once is to misrepresent the product to your customers. If I bought a car and the salesman said it came with Gas for a year, it better damn well come with it. If someone came back later and said "well, he isnt the boss so it doesn't matter." That would be false. It would still be misrepresentation no matter who stated it, if it was used to persuede someone into closing a deal.

10-27-2008, 10:39 PM	#41 (permalink)
Khamon BUY TREES MOAR1 don't wanna eat you ... yet Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 4,153 SL Join Date: November, 2003 Business: Fate Gardens Flowers and Trees SLShopper Ads: 2 My Mood:	It doesn't matter what any Linden says. We've been lied to by every executive Linden that's ever worked at the Lab, and several janitors as well.

10-27-2008, 10:43 PM	#44 (permalink)
Gigs Backroom Bureaucrat All Hail the Hypnocat Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,966 Awards: 1	Well that's the bottom line, they are taking what amounts to a technical flaw (their inability to properly partition a server 16 ways, something that many many VPS hosts do all over the web) and trying to claim it's a social problem. They are punishing estate owners because they can't figure out how to fix a bug. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2219