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Old 05-04-2011, 09:33 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Are There Real Cases of Failed DMCA Takedowns and Content Creators Leaving?

Let's see if we can get this information in a focused thread.

The main thesis of NeoBokrug, Tateru Nino and other widely-read forums posters and bloggers is:

o Content creators are not getting action on their DMCA takedown notices
o Linden Lab's Customer Service is not responding to them
o Therefore they are leaving Second Life.

I believe all of these claims to be untrue; I think in fact they may be wildly exaggerated. That's because I can't get anyone to come up with concrete cases. Apparently they dislike doing that because a) filing and tracking a DMCA requires revealing one's real name to the possible culprit and inviting revenge b) talking about the cases invites further exploitation. Well, that's a pretty awful situation, but let's look at the two cases we do have that are widely publicized and which form the basis of many people's subjective judgement that "content creators who received no action on their DMCA notices are leaving SL because LL has poor customer service".

Let's take Case no. 1. Maxwell Graf. Was this case discussed here on sluniverse.com? Prad discussed it extensively as did Prim Perfect. Maxwell was angered after only 6 days of waiting due to a reply he felt was inadequate because it claimed removal when removal was not done. He did not perservere after this seemingly good-faith answer to correct it, and he flamed out and announced he was closing his store and going to Blue Mars. Then BM died later, but that's another story.

Today, his store is still on SL Marketplace. I see no evidence that his case was NOT resolved. In fact, I hear through the grapevine it *was*. But I don't see that Prad or others came back to tell us this. Again, I have only *hearsay* and I look for *the facts* which I trust, um, Hive Mind to have. So let's have it, Hive Mind. Maxwell Graf was your poster-boy, text-book-perfect case of all your claims. So...were they true?

Case no. 2 involves Aenox Aeon (Will Burns). Based on his very complex and convoluted story even longer than my blog posts, Tateru ran a short piece claiming LL Legal Team Drops the Ball on IP Rights. This story never got dissected by Sharia Court and Hive Mind. Odd, that. It was truly a whopper. Tateru never retracted it. But as I painstakingly illustrated, it was really a grand hustle. It should have been denounced. It wasn't. As one poster on Aenox's forums pointed out aptly, while Aenox sought written permission for IP rights in SL (and misleadingly so), he had not actually gotten them, and he chose to construe his "non-answer" as a kind of implicit approval. He then chose to construe LL's non-action in removal as proof of "dropping the ball". Neither were accurately characterized in good faith. The entire caper was really an outrageous case of Shakedown Street.

I'm confident that even Hive Mind can draw that conclusion. Even Hive Mind can see that Maxwell Graf may well have slunk back to SL and solved his case quietly.

So buzz away, sting and sting again, and see what you can come up with. The answer is, the cases are full of holes. They aren't what they seem. And if this is your basis for your claims of inaction by the Lab and content creators "all leaving" -- then they are patently biased.

*UPDATE* Maxwell Graf's store Rustica is still alive and well in Second Life, I just confirmed that.

Last edited by Prokofy Neva; 05-04-2011 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:52 AM   #2 (permalink)
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can the hive mind jibes - you post here so by definition you're one of us now.
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:53 AM   #3 (permalink)
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can the hive mind jibes - you post here so by definition you're one of us now.
No, hon. I'm not part of hive mind. I'm demanding accountability of hive mind. I think for myself. But as an aside, thanks for revealing that you think like the classic KGB man. He recruits someone to inform on his neighbour who says "no." He then gives him an innocuous task -- look up a journal in a public source. He gets cooperation. He then says with a sinister smile, "You're one of us now."

Posting here isn't being part of hive mind. It's following up on my very strenuous self-defense against the false claims about my theses, and about SL and LL. That's all. Say, are you with the Woodburies?
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:55 AM   #4 (permalink)
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No, hon. I'm not part of hive mind. I'm demanding accountability of hive mind. I think for myself.
we all think for ourselves - that's the problem with your theory.. if you come across someone who thinks like you, do you automatically go "omg I have a hive mind!!"
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:56 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Right, Prok showed up wearing xer tin foil hat.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:00 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I know first hand that Linden Lab does not always remove content that has been DMCAed, and that they sometimes do an extremely poor job investigating and ban an innocent party.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:00 AM   #7 (permalink)
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...Say, are you with the Woodburies?
You rang? =^-^=
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:01 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva View Post
No, hon. I'm not part of hive mind. I'm demanding accountability of hive mind. I think for myself. But as an aside, thanks for revealing that you think like the classic KGB man. He recruits someone to inform on his neighbour who says "no." He then gives him an innocuous task -- look up a journal in a public source. He gets cooperation. He then says with a sinister smile, "You're one of us now."

Posting here isn't being part of hive mind. It's following up on my very strenuous self-defense against the false claims about my theses, and about SL and LL. That's all. Say, are you with the Woodburies?
she updated the post.. how surprising

no, I'm not KGB nor woodbury nor CIA just in case you want to add that one - just someone who thinks your human actually have something to contribute when it's free of the Prok persona. I'm waiting to be proved wrong of course as I doubt you can control Prok but we'll see.

pro tip - if you want information out of the people you rightly or wrongly consider to be your enemies, you don't go insulting them.

and you probably do need to get outside for a bit, if you think that the people here are your enemies I think you'll find you're mistaken.. This is the internet, most may detest you for the insults you've hurled at them down the years but I doubt very many actually wish you any ill will. Life is too short for that kind of thing.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:03 AM   #9 (permalink)
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In spite of Procs convoluted posting I too am curious as to the state of DMCS takedown handling by LL.

Are there too many fake take downs?
Are there too few real deserved take downs?
Is the lab failing to process take downs as they should?

Anyone have any solid answers?

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Old 05-04-2011, 10:03 AM   #10 (permalink)
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we all think for ourselves - that's the problem with your theory.. if you come across someone who thinks like you, do you automatically go "omg I have a hive mind!!"
So, did you have any cases?

Could you look at those two I came up with that seem to evaporate and let us know what you think?
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:04 AM   #11 (permalink)
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In spite of Procs convoluted posting I too am curious as to the state of DMCS takedown handling by LL.

Are there too many fake take downs?
Are there too few real deserved take downs?
Is the lab failing to process take downs as they should?

Anyone have any solid answers?

Tess
It's a very short and concise post with two very clear cases with links to their documentation.

Got any yourself?
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:05 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:06 AM   #13 (permalink)
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she updated the post.. how surprising

no, I'm not KGB nor woodbury nor CIA just in case you want to add that one - just someone who thinks your human actually have something to contribute when it's free of the Prok persona. I'm waiting to be proved wrong of course as I doubt you can control Prok but we'll see.

pro tip - if you want information out of the people you rightly or wrongly consider to be your enemies, you don't go insulting them.

and you probably do need to get outside for a bit, if you think that the people here are your enemies I think you'll find you're mistaken.. This is the internet, most may detest you for the insults you've hurled at them down the years but I doubt very many actually wish you any ill will. Life is too short for that kind of thing.
1. I don't have a "persona," I have an avatar. My avatar is no different than my human. That you think you can drive false wedges between multiple personalities like Sybil is another KGB-like trait. Say, did you ever work in intelligence?

2. I haven't insulted anyone, I've stated truths that are unpleasant for people living in the haze of hive mind.

3. I've never found you to say anything of substance, ever.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:06 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I wish this place had a middle finger button.
Do you know of any cases of DMCA takedowns that failed? Content creators who left? Neo says there are lots of his friends. Do you have any?
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:10 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I know first hand that Linden Lab does not always remove content that has been DMCAed, and that they sometimes do an extremely poor job investigating and ban an innocent party.
So you yourself have a case or witnessed a case first-hand?

Tell us about the case. How long did you wait for a resopnse? What was the response? What didn't they remove, i.e. they removed one copy from vendors, but not illegally bought copies?

Now you're telling us something else. They sometimes ban an innocent party. Hm. Does that mean there are too many cases? That they are bogus?
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:19 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva View Post
No, hon. I'm not part of hive mind. I'm demanding accountability of hive mind. I think for myself. But as an aside, thanks for revealing that you think like the classic KGB man. He recruits someone to inform on his neighbour who says "no." He then gives him an innocuous task -- look up a journal in a public source. He gets cooperation. He then says with a sinister smile, "You're one of us now."

Posting here isn't being part of hive mind. It's following up on my very strenuous self-defense against the false claims about my theses, and about SL and LL. That's all. Say, are you with the Woodburies?
Prok, is it possible to not insult us in just 1 post? Why does it matter who they are with in this discussion? Why must you always belittle and look down on us with insults like Hive Mind and the like? I think you may have great ideas, but they can't been seen between all the insults. I am having a lot of trouble filtering out the insults from actual valid points.

If you look at it, you have started a new discussion to see if the claims are over exaggerated. We just haven't figured out the best way to actually get this data reliably.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:31 AM   #17 (permalink)
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can the hive mind jibes - you post here so by definition you're one of us now.
I don't agree: W.E started threads too.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:35 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Prok, is it possible to not insult us in just 1 post?
Nope.
It's a pathology.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:37 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva View Post
So, did you have any cases?

Could you look at those two I came up with that seem to evaporate and let us know what you think?

I don't have cases, all I know is that from talking to the creators (texturers mainly) who used to get hit often because of that box of 40k textures that lodging the DMCA took a lot of time and effort and the box kept popping up - always the same object name. I don't know of any texturers who left over it but it did cause a lot of them to be less enthusiastic about releasing textures in sl.

This box should have been wiped from everyone's inventory back in 2007 and it wasn't. That's where the main failure of the DMCA process, as it stands, lies even if every single texture maker DMCA'd that box because it had their content in it I doubt LL would delete it because it's not one person's work contained within it.

As for people flouncing off then coming back, that's just part of the fabric of SL. The frustrations mount and then there's a final straw and people say they're going to leave and they end up back because the pull of SL is strong. These days I can forgive it but it means I take anyone threatening flouncing with a pinch of salt. Flouncing is all part of the drama that some get caught up in.

Does this give you the proof you seek? nope. However, if Stroker can bear to come in here he may tell you about the problems with getting that mother lode box sorted a couple of years ago.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:41 AM   #20 (permalink)
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So you yourself have a case or witnessed a case first-hand?

Tell us about the case. How long did you wait for a resopnse? What was the response? What didn't they remove, i.e. they removed one copy from vendors, but not illegally bought copies?

Now you're telling us something else. They sometimes ban an innocent party. Hm. Does that mean there are too many cases? That they are bogus?
I've had a few cases first hand where they did not remove content I DMCAed. I also have a close friend who has gone through much worse since the person who ripped her content DMCAed her and she (the original creator) got banned instead, despite the thief having a DMCA against them.

This is all I'll say on it as I really don't have an interest in helping you out.

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3. I've never found you to say anything of substance, ever.
I know I can't be the only one who laughed at this.

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Old 05-04-2011, 10:41 AM   #21 (permalink)
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It's a very short and concise post with two very clear cases with links to their documentation.

Got any yourself?
Quoted for the first line. Also for the fact that this post is the shortest one I have ever read from Prok.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:43 AM   #22 (permalink)
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1. I don't have a "persona," I have an avatar. My avatar is no different than my human. That you think you can drive false wedges between multiple personalities like Sybil is another KGB-like trait. Say, did you ever work in intelligence?
Oh, so things have changed? You have yelled at people for addressing you as your human. You have yelled at people for addressing you as your avatar. So now you are some blend of the two I guess?
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:49 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I don't agree: W.E started threads too.
SLU is one of the most remarkable forums I've come across in that (up to a point) there's room for everyone. If wasted hadn't crossed whatever line it was that got him turfed, those who enjoyed his brand of posting humour would still be enjoying it today. It's main strength is that you can have 10 posters with 15 opinions and it will get heated and sometimes downright nasty but in the end it usually sorts itself out.

Saying that of course there are some who inhabit the politics forum who may completely disagree with me but hey ho, it's my fantasy and I'm enjoying it.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:52 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:57 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Just from the perspective of the Dr Who community in SL which is fairly large...

Over the past year and a bit there has been a higher and higher amount of DMCA's filed by the real content creators within SL against folks who are obviously ripping content. In fact in my snapzilla page theres even a screenshot of a copybotted box sitting next to the original.

In about 60% of the DMCA cases LL done...nothing...nada...sat on their fat collective money grabbing asses as another brilliant content creator left SL.

In my eyes Linden Lab only step in when they feel like it, which is getting rarer and rarer thesedays.

Its now got to the stage where only a few of the large companies are making content, the rest have given up. The last time i spoke to a Linden was at the beginning of last year (Sea Linden) when the Dr Who Expo (Katrina) was having problems with a strange search bug, Sea said he would look into the problems plaguing the growing Dr Who community but nothing came of it.

So since LL aint doing a damn thing about it...i do.

The Dr Who group i run has over 2300 members in it, most of the Dr who fans in SL who are active and part of the community are in the group. Once myself and the big builders in the community look at a copybot problem we name and shame the bastards in the group...they leave soon after being banned from all the major Dr who sims in the community.
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