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Old 06-24-2014, 11:37 AM   #1251 (permalink)
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I've been in SL 1.0 since 2006 and that's a long time for a hobby. I've run through a fascinating gamut of activities and interests, one after another, until I reached the point where breeding butterflies and meeting friends were the only strong motivations for logging in. I've finally gotten bored with the butterflies, so socializing is the only remaining draw. I'm feeling a bit lost and restless, so exploring a new grid and new features is really rather appealing to me right now.
I hope they profile list your SL2 join date. My SL1 join date is getting a little long in the tooth, and I'm starting to get the fisheye - "you've been here how long?"
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:37 AM   #1252 (permalink)
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Summary of the thread so far:

LL shouldn't build SL 2.0 because it will disrupt SL 1.0 and we'll lose everything.

LL should build 2.0, but they shouldn't announce it now because it will disrupt 1.0 and we'll lose everything.

LL should build 2.0 because LL 1.0 is outdated and declining anyway and it will be awesome.

LL should not only build 2.0 but they were right to announce it this far ahead so people can plan for it.

LL should build 2.0 because LL is outdated and declining anyway, but unless LL changes their own management and staffing and learn from past mistakes, 2.0 is DOA.

We're right at where I expected us to be at page 50. I saw a glimmer of hope in the 40s, but then there was the Great Land Baron revolt and we're back on track to start to lolcats at 75.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:39 AM   #1253 (permalink)
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Soooo, throw away profit you're making now because MAYBE you won't make any money as a land baron two years from now on SL 2.0? Why is this somehow preferable over watching the land market closely and paring down sim by sim as needed to maintain profitable occupancy for the next three to five years on SL 1.0?

It wouldn't shock me to see some additional land contraction due to this announcement, but SL has been contracting for YEARS anyway. Any real estate barons who haven't factored that contraction into their current business plans are probably already circling the drain. SL may not be dying, but we're in negative growth and that means more and more land barons are going to go out of business every year.

LL has provided two years warning of a major shift and people are complaining? I guess that means you'd rather have found out two monthsbefore 2.0 Beta opened and had no time to prepare at all. Makes sense. Yup.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:45 AM   #1254 (permalink)
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A tier model that doesn't put the burden on the environment creators would bring me back and building again.
I wish LL I would just bite the bullet on this one and make a sim discount for "environment creators". Of course, such discounts can always be gamed. But I think LL has always been too absolutist about such discounts; any discount that can be gamed (e.g. the education discount) was simply eliminated. I think we still have the LEA and some sort of education discount has recently re-emerged, but these are not exactly touted by LL nowadays.

This issue always made me want to say: Oh hell, LL, grow a pair. If you want users to create interesting environments, put an incentive program for folks who build interesting/beautiful/helpful welcoming sims, and police it as much as you can afford. Random visits by a couple of support folks who are forbidden to engage in conversation with residents would not be too big an onus. Oh sure, there would be cries of favoritism by sim owners who think their yucky sim is just the shiz, but LL has a thick skin already for that sort of whining.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:48 AM   #1255 (permalink)
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She didnt make that blanket assertion. She's saying the same thing I am
My mistake I read her response to ....

"People always came into SL with fantasies of making lots of money. Once they realized what that involved, they forgot about it. "

(Which was "The people who forgot about mostly left or became casual users who log in every once in a while. The active userbase is made up of people who cling to the fantasy in part or in whole.")

...as being just what the words said - a blanket assertion about the user-base and what motivates and drives it. I guess you make allowances for friendship where all I see is a single persons pretty bitter worldview that - like most things of that nature - if repeated often and loudly enough runs the risk of becoming what people accept as the truth, and I believe it's not like that. Or at least not that simple.

This is a pretty big issue as far as both existing SL (they aint ever going to lower tier or listen to our endless carping about costs if they want everyone to jump ship to the shiny new) and what the land ownership model will be in SL 2.0. - and thus what that will encourage by way of content. So on the offchance that anyone ever listens to us, the people footing the bill, cynical empirical sounding statements wont help anyone.

But then I don't want to make SL pay, so I have a different horse in a whole other race.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:51 AM   #1256 (permalink)
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Of course it's in a companies best interest not to lose profit, but wouldn't a mass exodus or strike do exactly that? If they truly want to somehow blackmail the Lab or whatever you are proposing, wouldn't they be cutting their own profits, at least in the short term?


It would seem to me, the successful ones, are pretty savvy and know exactly how they got to be where they are, and that's by reading the market and pre-positioning themselves. I wouldn't be surprised, as Chip said, if they aren't ready to have a foot in both places.

In SL, to buy up the cheap land being dumped and catering to the last of the hold outs that will never leave, and first in to the new world to set up for renteres there too.
Perhaps you will be right, Pancake. But I think that rather than keep their foot in one dying world that will accelerate its death the closer the other one's launch gets closer, and another in a maybe dead-on-arrival world, they pull their money out now and invest it elsewhere, meanwhile handing a lesson to LL about screwing with possibly their biggest in-world monetary investors (and thereby handing similar endeavors a cautionary tale, as well). As I said earlier, they can't wait too long to use the threat or it lessens the impact of it. Also, why bother with the headache of dwindling income but probably not any lesser headaches (due to the fact that the old SL is going to be run by some kind of skeleton crew) ? But your probably correct, there is a curve to that rate of return, and each land baron may decide to do it independently to try and keep their losses to a minimum.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:53 AM   #1257 (permalink)
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Whew, finally read the whole thread... *dies*

On the whole I'm just thinking I don't want to wait 2 years and where's my beta ticket

Better quality and new features not restricted by being built on top of the old SL - thumbs up.

My wish list:

A new avatar body that's created to be both modifiable with sliders etc and also easier to rig clothing/avatars to. Extra bones as necessary, good enough looking that we don't need to stick on faux bodyparts.

As a half-cat I would adore some neko/furry options in terms of a base avi with paws and being able to add cat/dog ears etc through the avi sliders rather than alpha bits out and stick parts on. So better support for making non-humans would be on my wish list

I hope we can have a new avatar that brings system layers up in quality to their meshy equivalents.

For the clothing edit panel - add options to include 3D belts, collars and cuffs. Side or back splits too along with a more accurate set of adjustments to lengthen/shorten items without that awkward broken edge you get in SL. Then without having to use 3D tools, we can create the shape of the most basic garments in world and then texture them with textures similar to the existing system template textures. But the final garment is 3D and texturally it looks good enough to mix with new mesh clothing pieces.

My indulgent dream would be making the basic garment shapes on the avatar in world, then downloading the model into Blender and being able to tweak the shape from a foundation garment rather than modelling from scratch, then re-upload to SL. Us Blender noobs need all the help we can get....

If the system avatar and textures are updated then it would be so much easier to layer clothing with mesh, especially if the system clothing had a more 3D shape with cuffs and stuff like raised button areas heh.

I'd also wish for better fabric movement on clothing so dresses can actually swish rather than cling like weird rubber things. If there was a way to bring the best of flexi into system and mesh clothing I'd do nothing but make dresses and dance in them lol.

When it comes to concerns and negatives...

We need a new TOS like yesterday. I'm glad it's still being mentioned and that you're not sounding like a vulture Ebbe, but we need it in writing. There needs to be a restriction to the service being provided not essentially 'we can do what we want with the content'.

We need stronger creator protection and a better permissions system would be handy too.

It's hard to believe that the team for SL is getting smaller and believe that the platform is equally important to LL when it's likely to receive less attention as a result. I realise that SL is more mature and doesn't necessarily need a huge team to develop further, but the perception for some users may be that smaller team=maintenance mode.

I'm hoping the closed source isn't permanent or that there is some way to enable TPV devs to build different viewers and change the UI. Or create a totally customisable viewer that we can really control and adapt to our own use requirements.

We have a long period of limbo where we're in SL but there's a new world coming. Yet there are issues in transferring old content to the new world. That is likely to effect some some item sales. The temptation for some could be to stop shopping until they know about transferring options. Clarity and reassurance are going to be essential to keep everyone engaged in SL during this interim period so business owners aren't losing so much business that they can't pay tier and quit.

As a creator I think it's vital that we have an early heads-up on the kinds of work we'll need to do if we want to bring existing work over, what will work and what won't. Our customers will want to know this too.

There's also the obvious creator issue of what skills we need and some specs for things like textures so we can learn what we need to and have something constructive to do while we hop from paw to paw in impatience.

Speaking of which, can I have that beta spot now? Can I, can I? *hypnotic wide-eyed kitten stare*

As a consumer, well there seems little point buying high quality items in this limbo period if they won't transfer across. I know some are quite disposable with their items, but others like myself aren't. And if you feel your main focus will be the new SL3 then it's tempting to make do with current inventory/DIY stuff rather than buy that amazing

I look forward to a new world, but I don't want to be confused, naked, Ruthed and deco-less when I get there. Unless there's a SLU greeting spot in which case I'll blend in just fine!

And damn this may be my longest forum post in history. This kitty is not good at brevity - sorry!
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:54 AM   #1258 (permalink)
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No one really is in the way if you want to download sim on a stick - you can have your full region - for zilch!

Now, if you realize that, then you maybe realize that you do not pay exactly only for server space at SL, but for some added value more. Otherwise - why not OpenSim? Or Kiteley? Or Sim On Stick?

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Except a "laughed" there is then no substance as answer if i see this correct.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:54 AM   #1259 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jacqueline trudeau View Post
I hope they profile list your SL2 join date. My SL1 join date is getting a little long in the tooth, and I'm starting to get the fisheye - "you've been here how long?"
I want my SL1.0 join date even though many here have a longer heritage -I want to proclaim I was pre-resident!
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:56 AM   #1260 (permalink)
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so i was sitting on a couch in my fish tank last night, watching my pretty fish swim around while i waited for my best friend/partner of five years to log in....posting Jo's blog to groups that were freaking out...telling people to be calm....the rumors flying around are crazy
and i was thinkin about this whole thing.....and seriously, i build for myself...make stuff for myself...but i'm not a merchant
i'm perfectly happy sitting in my fish tank with my best friend, watching net flicks together and talking, or going to a live music concert....
sure, the graphics could be better, but SL is my happy place, which makes the technical stuff not very important
would i migrate?
can i keep my name?
can i keep my look? or at least close to it?
do we get some sort of discount, since we own a good chunk of land in SL? can we trade up?
can my computer run it? hehe
i tried out cloud party - i don't do mesh, so meh
i tried out blue mars - nobody was there
i tried out wetfm - i don't stream
SL is my home, and bliss is very much who i am
i guess we'll all wait and see...i'd really love to do beta, just so i can see if i can learn how to build there, but i'm sure as long as the door are open, i'm gonna be somewhere on my land in SL doing my happy stuff...in fact, i really don't see why the two platforms can't exist side by side for a long time
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:57 AM   #1261 (permalink)
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I guess that means you'd rather have found out two months before 2.0 Beta opened and had no time to prepare at all. Makes sense. Yup.
Actually, that would have been smarter on LL's part. It would have given less reaction time. Now they stand to lose the whole company.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:59 AM   #1262 (permalink)
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Now please don't stay in the way of the experts with a vision and who already proved to us in the past that they are able to achieve their goals on building the next new shebang of a new world, especially Hifi and whatever Linden Lab is brewing up. You had your chance. Thank you very much.
Yeah, fuck that noise. AND the horse it rode in on.

Openims' primary advantage -which is ignored by the money-chasers in opensim itself- is the amount of power and control it gives to lowly "peons". You're able to set up your own environment, control it from top to bottom, and keep everything in it --in perpetuity.

In contrast, Linden Lab has spent the better part of the last 5 years trying to close the barn door of liberation, the TOS change, the "shared experience" chains, the IP fiasco of last year.

Opensim is, and will continue to be, a LIBRE alternative to the control issues of linden lab. It's about having total freedom, total control of your own, personal enviroment and being able to decide things as much or as little (kitely,kitely,kitely) as you want.

I agree with many of your criticism and have several of my own; -the core devs are devided and self-sabotaging, they are too passive and have been too blind to develop their own features. The scene is filled with tin-pot dictators who run their grids with the mindset of adolescent IRC channel operators. Far, far too many people involved are under the delusion that they're going to make a fortune somehow with this >10 year old tech.

They, like you, miss the entire point of Opensim.

It's strength is in the freedom of expression, combined with the ZERO cost of entry that it give to NORMAL PEOPLE.

Want your own sim?
Download sim on a stick
download textures and oars from zadaroo.com
do 30 minutes worth of readin
*BAM* you're in.

I'm watching HiFi and hoping that it will -in a similarly empowering way- offer a way for average people to do the same thing (have a shared space that can be used for creative experession) but with better network and social infrastructure.

But watching LL's continuing clampdown over the last few years --I don't think that "SL 2.0" will be a positive development in terms of end-user, accessible empowerment the way that opensimulator is...or potentially that hifi hopefully will be.

I think it's going to be shit, in all honesty ..complete and total shit.

But when it opens for beta I'll be signing up too; so we'll see.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:02 PM   #1263 (permalink)
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I would love a city with a hundred or maybe even hundreds of people being able to walk around at the same time.
For the record, this is my hell. If consumer priced private land isn't part of the new new SL (and that's one of my fears) I will not be a big part of it, either.

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The one make-or-break 2.0 feature for me will be avatar customization. If I don't have the flexibility to mod my avatar to look like Beebo (and that includes dressing in guy clothes) then I'll remain an occasional tourist. Inadequate avatar customization was the main reason I never felt any draw to Blue Mars or Cloud Party.
I have to believe that SL realizes this is the only thing it has in spades over any other format. Honestly, I think this was downplayed a lot in early SL and the resisted it to some extent because of the stupid belief that men had to drive any tech related product. But many many women come to SL and stay in SL because of avatar customization alone. Every woman I've ever brought into SL has immediately wanted to improve her avatar. I can understand if the default avatar is something very neutral, but they must provide as much customization possibility as possible along with tools that make it easy to customize every aspect. They also need to get the templates out to creators as soon as they possibly can.

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Whether we like it or not, the Land people keep the lights on in SL. End of Story.
This is a guess. It's always been a guess. They keep the lights on for now because SL hasn't been willing to gamble. But if you're suggesting we owe them something for their business investments, you're wrong. They didn't "keep the lights on" for SL or you or me. They did it because it made business sense for them. If the time comes for SL to shift their business for the good of the company, no one owes land barons anything. They had their run. I suspect LL will try to do something fair by them (probably too fair is my guess) but we'll see.

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I'm sorry, I don't believe y'all sell enough gewgaws to upkeep an expensive grid. And it is in LL's best interest to cultivate as many cash flows as possible. Land being the most important.
It's just not that expensive to run the grid anymore -- or it shouldn't be, and Ebbe's comments about reducing costs indicate this. SL is still charging the same rates it was charging ten years ago (slightly higher, actually). Do you know what tech equipment from ten years ago still costs the same? None. The days of needing an armed guard to escort you down the hall while you carry a tray of RAM are over.

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Of course, land barons have never used leverage with LL before.
I'm sorry, I think I cracked a rib from hysterical laughing. Someone wasn't here for the Great Pouting of the Loss of the Telehubs. Look, I like land barons -- I even had one as a friend once -- but they are not the Grand Poohbahs of SL. They're just normal people who get by doing their business like everyone else. The format has, through no fault of theirs, been held hostage to them for too long. They're being given years to make other plans. The notion that they should dump anything profitable while it's still profitable is absurd.

Now if something's on the fringes I can see them saying "I'm gonna go ahead and let this one go," and maybe there will actually be enough of that short term to cause a minor tightening. But you know who would know that for sure? Linden Lab. And as incompetent and annoying as they can be about, well, almost everything -- they are absolute turtles when it comes to (1) income and (2) legal CYA.

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Old 06-24-2014, 12:02 PM   #1264 (permalink)
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Perhaps you will be right, Pancake. But I think that rather than keep their foot in one dying world that will accelerate its death the closer the other one's launch gets closer, and another in a maybe dead-on-arrival world, they pull their money out now and invest it elsewhere, meanwhile handing a lesson to LL about screwing with possibly their biggest in-world monetary investors (and thereby handing similar endeavors a cautionary tale, as well). As I said earlier, they can't wait too long to use the threat or it lessens the impact of it. Also, why bother with the headache of dwindling income but probably not any lesser headaches (due to the fact that the old SL is going to be run by some kind of skeleton crew) ? But your probably correct, there is a curve to that rate of return, and each land baron may decide to do it independently to try and keep their losses to a minimum.

You bring up some really good points Lord. Gives me a lot to think about for sure, these discussions rarely happen in my circle of SL. I split it off into a poll, because I think it's an interesting dicussion.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:03 PM   #1265 (permalink)
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(besides i agree with Penny that tier is not too high, but that is a different topic)
It's not necessarily that I think tier isn't too high, it's a combination of two things.

First, Linden Lab makes it impossible for the average user to get the full value of the land they pay for, and they actively discourage content creators from making it any easier. They don't do this intentionally, they do this because no one at LL actually understands how content creation works in their own product. A huge problem LL needs to address if they hope to do any better with their new product.

You can build some spacious, detailed environments in even just 400-500 prims and if you set up some premium accounts and a land group, that will cost you less than $4.50 a month.

Second, the whole concept of how land ownership and tier works in SL is flawed from the word go. It needs to change entirely in the next virtual world from LL. This whole fake real estate game LL created where we "buy" land or regions and then pay monthly tier on it? Being forced to share space and resources with other users whom you have little to no control over so they can completely ruin the experience without even breaking TOS? That needs to end. It should be more like paying for server space. Because that's essentially what it is.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:08 PM   #1266 (permalink)
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But then I don't want to make SL pay, so I have a different horse in a whole other race.

I dont want people to feel like they're *forced* to find a way to make SL pay, in order to do the stuff they'd really like to be doing with it.


Want to? Awesome
Don't want to? Also awesome.

But it's the "I'd really rather not care about this, but I have no choice" that's at issue, I think.

Just to be clear- I personally am not in that pool. But the fact that those people can't easily build their dreams (whatever they may be) without having to forever chase after funding for them does nothing good for the grid at large.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:15 PM   #1267 (permalink)
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I don't mind an in-world sales tax as long as it encourages in-world shopping and lots of land sales.

To me, the SL Marketplace boom has stripped so much out of SL. Gone... OK, not gone but reduced are the groups of friends shopping in stores (I can only speak from experience as an owner of a store since 2008 and having witnessed trends), replaced by lone shoppers while many just shop online.

But why? It's a virtual world so surely the main emphasis should be on shopping *within* it (but of course there should still be an online Marketplace). And for that reason, lower tier/more sales tax in SL 2.0 would be fine by me. Because the changes would probably balance each other out, but it'd be good for the world itself.

Some may disagree and it may just be my own perception, but Marketplace (not the concept but the increased emphasis on it vs. shopping in SL) has stripped away something of what made SL special.
The problem with inworld shopping is two-fold.

First of all, between keyword spam, gaming traffic, and screwed-up code, Search doesn't work. It never HAS worked the way it should, and finding any specific item inworld is damn near impossible. If you can't find it, you're not going to buy it. With all the problems of the marketplace, it's still FAR easier to find anything there than inworld.

Second, lag. Specifically, lag caused by loading hundreds of huge textures. You can't blame this one on LL, it's the fault of the merchants. If you go into a store and are faced with solid four-story walls of vendors and every one has a 1024 x 1024 texture showing the product, you're going to be waiting forever until they all rezz. It's even further exacerbated by making every color variation have its own vendor. You can save SOME time by putting them all together in one of the networked vendor systems, so that only one color at a time is displayed... in other words, if you have 12 different colors, you only show one at a time, for 1/12 the texture loading bandwidth necessary. Want to make it even worse? Set your TP landing point INSIDE the store and make the textures all high loading priority.

People TP in, get frustrated waiting for things to load, and leave.

The marketplace may have taken away some of the things that people liked about shopping inworld, but its so much easier to search and faster to use that a lot of people just don't care.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:19 PM   #1268 (permalink)
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The best is to rebuild a new home. That is what LL aims to do : a brand new code and no vermin allowed.
You realize of course that excludes a great deal of SL user base alone?
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:33 PM   #1269 (permalink)
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This is a guess. It's always been a guess. They keep the lights on for now because SL hasn't been willing to gamble. But if you're suggesting we owe them something for their business investments, you're wrong. They didn't "keep the lights on" for SL or you or me. They did it because it made business sense for them. If the time comes for SL to shift their business for the good of the company, no one owes land barons anything. They had their run. ....

Originally Posted by Lord
Of course, land barons have never used leverage with LL before.

I'm sorry, I think I cracked a rib from hysterical laughing.
Estate contributions to LL's revenue stream were very well known back in 2006-2007, when LL still published economic figures. You can probably still find many discussions of them in the old forum archives. Tier was nearly all of LL's revenue, and well over half of that was estate tier. Of course, LL has not been public with numbers for quite some time now, so who knows.

If land barons were to disappear, I don't know how one could replace the value some of them added to SL. The huge connected continent of Azure was fabulous. Caledon still holds some magic, even though there has been a lot of visual drift now that there are fewer paying customers. Even small estates like the Country Club offer a LOT of value over raw, uncovenanted land. However, I have to admit that I've never felt many of the Chung or Prok offerings were very attractive.

Re: Lord's comment ... I read it as sarcasm.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:34 PM   #1270 (permalink)
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You realize of course that excludes a great deal of SL user base alone?
I iz a vermin?
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:45 PM   #1271 (permalink)
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You realize of course that excludes a great deal of SL user base alone?
They will stay in the old SL since it will be up, plain and simple.

A lower land tier (with higher set up costs unfortunately) will boost the SL size and economy. Linden Lab wants SL more mainstream, face with this.
About Land Lords, very likely LL will do a compensation program to allow a fast migration on the new grid. Obviously they will focus on an higher sim number to have the same money gain.
I think that Linden Lab has discussed about this "new SL" from a long time with big Land Lords like Anshe Chung, RGF, Zoha and likely they have approved the new deal.
That is, SL needs to change instead of it will die slowly.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:45 PM   #1272 (permalink)
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I am entirely positive the creators of megaprim packs have zero problem with you exporting "their" prims with external tools, without their explicit permission. So as long as they are the only other creator involved, I would not worry about it. Save yourself some time. Copybot is a tool.
I wonder how much copybot material will be uploaded to other SL type places like Open sim or hyper grid sims? I recall the Inworlds grid being accused of hosting a lot of copied materials when it was first becoming popular. Even their log on page featured stolen plants from a SL designer at one point.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:46 PM   #1273 (permalink)
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It's going to be really interesting to see what they do for a new avatar system. I would LOVE to get a look at those design docs, if they exist yet. Will they try and make a more flexible and comprehensive appearance system or will they abdicate that responsibility figuring content creators will take up the slack? My hope is for a much better built in system along with much deeper hooks for content creators so that 3rd party avatars can tap that functionality better. And I agree about those starter avatars. That they made it out the door as-is is worrying.
One thing that's REALLY been lacking in SL is the ability to make one, three, four, six, or eight legged AVs.

I'd REALLY love to have a Pierson's Puppeteer AV, f-rex...



so, yanno, I don't really want to hear about simple ferrets...

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Old 06-24-2014, 12:49 PM   #1274 (permalink)
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You realize of course that excludes a great deal of SL user base alone?
No ferrets then, at least under UK law. But I guess things might be different in California.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:50 PM   #1275 (permalink)
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No ferrets then, at least under UK law. But I guess things might be different in California.

Ferrets are actually illegal in CA.
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