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Old 02-24-2014, 03:54 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Changing the "Culture of Free" in SL

In the "Advice for Ebbe" and other discussion threads about how to improve Second Life, one of the issues repeatedly mentioned is the fact that landowners bear a disproportionate share of the costs. It's not just that the tier is too damn high, but also that a certain group of people pay for things, while others utilize them without giving back. I think it would be valuable to discuss this and possible solutions, both for Ebbe's benefit in case he is reading and for solutions we could implement as business owners and landowners.

When I look at my own history as a business owner in Second Life, I realize that my choices have been greatly shaped by this phenomenon. When I joined Second Life, I found it difficult to learn how to do things, and even harder to meet people with whom I shared common interests. My original intention for Solace Beach was for it to be a welcoming place for newbies, as well as a peaceful retreat for those needing an escape from real life stress. I eventually connected with a builder and scripter, who turned out to be terrible people, but because of them I was inspired to make my dream of creating an amusement park a reality. Sounds lucrative, right? In real life, an amusement park is a great business. There's money to be made from admission fees and overpriced junk food. But in Second Life, I put out tons of donation boxes, but never make anywhere close to enough to cover the tier.

I also discovered the live music scene and absolutely loved it. I started booking performers to play at Solace Beach. But booking a good performer costs 4000-5000 L$ for an hour-long show. Such a performer can bring in between 20 to 50 people, but the majority of them only tip the performer and give little or nothing to the venue. There are no drinks to sell. I probably make 2000 to 2500L$ in tips for a night of music that can have 2 to 3 performers. So, 15k out, 2500 in - doesn't cover booking fees, let alone host pay or tier.

Since I wanted to do all of this but needed some way to cover the cost, I explored ways of making money and decided that the land business was the best way to bring in a substantial amount. I never really WANTED to do land. I needed something that would allow me to do what I actually wanted to do. I bought two regions and started renting them out. Wow it was a lot of work! And it still didn't cover all my costs. I bought more regions, and at that point decided that I should just have a go at making a real-life income from this. I bought more regions, but I had to hire staff. Over time it grew, and then as the real life economy tanked, shrunk. At times I lost money and at times I broke even. I never made what I hoped to make.

Finally now I make money, but it's mostly due to games, not land. It's not enough to live on. Due to the costs, I rarely have live music anymore, just a couple of hours a week and one of the performers is a barter deal in exchange for land. So basically I work my butt off so that other people can have a place to come for free and rarely give anything back. Over time and mounting frustrations, it's gradually becoming less and less worth it.

After seven years I have some wonderful friends and beautiful regions, but not much else to show for it. I wonder if we can change this and how. I can see some possible solutions, but they depend on everyone participating, otherwise it'll just be a race to the bottom. For example, we in the live music community have often discussed having cover charges for shows. That's typical and normal in real life, but in Second Life there's always a group of people who complain and say but what about those who can't afford to pay for a show? Well maybe they shouldn't go, then. Maybe they should buy L$, or get a SL job, just like real life.

Over on the new world notes blog, they proposed having a system of awards and achievements for Second Life, similar to many popular games. Although I don't think SL is a game and understand why this might go over poorly with others who feel the same, I wonder if a system like that could be used to reward people for sponsoring worthy projects and causes. For example, landowners could have the ability to award a badge to people who donate or become subscribers or patrons. There could also be volunteer badges for those who can't contribute financially but can give of their time and talents. People with lots of patron and volunteer badges would gain more respect in the community.

We also need to slowly remove the expectation that everything in Second Life is free. I appreciate those who come to my amusement park, but would like to have a admission or subscription system to get some revenue. I'm not trying to get rich, just cover the tier. I get about 200 visitors a day at times - that means if each visitor donated a whole 20L$ - 10 cents - I'd cover tier and then some. But I don't. I have people who spend every day roaming my amusement park just to collect a few little dollar bills that light up and give 1L$ on click. I have them out for newbies, but I have older residents that have been collecting them for years and some days I just want to ban them. Some people take pride in never spending any money in Second Life, and I never respond to that with admiration. Suck it up and buy 10 bucks worth of L$ and you will be doing the community a great service. The problem again is that if I start charging admission for what I offer, not only are the tools to do so poorly designed, I will lose traffic to others who choose to still give away admission for free. We would need to somehow get the whole community united in thinking that the free lunch needs to stop.

Have you had similar experiences with struggling to fund your SL projects? What did you do? How do you think we, or LL, can fix this ongoing problem?
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:08 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The vast majority of people in SL are not willing to pay for experiences, only things (and even then only a percentage of them). Most of this is so deeply rooted in the SL culture that I don't see how it could be reversed. All you really can do is offer new things on a regular basis and get in the habit of rewarding people for paying for things instead of giving them free things in the hope they buy something else.

Live music venues are vanity projects, not businesses (no matter how much people wish otherwise). Some of them are nicely done and well managed, but the vast majority of them are not. But no matter how well done, the reality is that a musician could play on an empty 512 and most people would be fine.

Really what it boils down to is that SL is F2P and just like all other platforms of that nature, 10% of the population usually accounts for the bulk of income.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Well, shoot. I thought this was going to be the beginning of a rebellion against the pervasive culture of Free Xue, who is everywhere in every thread with her cutesy-tootsy wit and smart-alecky personality.



I was going to start a counter-revolution.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
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When I go about checking out events or just generally exploring, I have no clue in advance as to whether a particular place is going to entertain me. Even if I am just paying a tiny amount for the price of admission, those tiny amounts are going to add up if I am hopping around looking for something to entertain me. I do not feel I am entitled to free entertainment; I do however have a budget and I avoid unwise expenditures.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:31 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Also, if new people are to be attracted to SL--and possibly ultimately become paying customers--it's not a good idea for SL to have the reputation of "you have to pay for everything, there."

People are attracted to "free." Free content is an important recruitment tool.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:35 PM   #6 (permalink)
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It's a difficult thing for sure, but I don't know if there is any way other than some sort of official fee or subscription from The Providers themselves. Some people just won't pay for things no matter what. For some, that is the "game" of SL, for others, I guess they are just cheapskates. As someone who doesn't create anything in SL, unless you count mayhem, I'm always grateful to those who do, they are the source of my entrtainment, and I always try to support them, be it through tips, donations, or buying their products. I realize however that not everyone sees things like I do..

As for that award idea, it's not something I would be interested in taking part in, I don't want badges or titles or any sort of special recognition for just doing the right thing. I do agree however that there are a relatively small number of people footing the SL bill, which may not be fair, but LL let that genie out of the bottle a long time ago and I don't know if it can be put back in.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
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The vast majority of people in SL are not willing to pay for experiences,
A few months ago my sl family got together and we all went to see a performance. We got charged L$300 at the door to get in, which we all paid, and nobody complained. The place was packed. So you can't tell me there are not some people willing to pay to get in to see something, if its good.

The problem is the tip culture in SL. People have gotten use to, performers and venue owners, setting up the tip jar and seeing what happens. Well a lot of times, nothing happens.

You want to make money in SL doing shows you have to set up a venue that is so great people will want to pay you to come to it. There are several ways this could be accomplished. The performance I went to you had to pay a ticket taker the money and they gave you a bracelet. You had to wear the bracelet or get ejected, just like a lot of shows I go to in RL.

But there are other ways to implement this. It could be tied to the land for one. You can set the land where people have to pay to get access. I don't see why this isn't be used more often. If you run a club, set it where the group charges a few L$ ever month to everyone that joins.

I know these are easier said than done but it can be done. But to make it work you have to build a venue where people are willing to pay to come. You will have to book acts that are hard to get in world. And then you will have to make people pay to get in to see them. Just tossing out the tip jar and hoping for the best isn't the answer.

Would I be willing to pay to get into a club? Well every time I go out to one I usually tip both the Dj and the venue. I've been to Fogbound almost every nite last week and left at least L$100 in each one, every night. Would I be willing to pay a L$100 to get in the door? Yes.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:49 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Part of the problem is that SL lacks good ways to advertise. People shell out $100 for Disneyland because they know what kind of experience they'll be getting. On the other hand, I've teleported to many places and events in SL that purported to be amazing, but were actually lousy. Perhaps limited time previews would work? 10 minutes free at the location to see if it appeals to you, then day pass and annual pass options.

Crowdfunding could be a solution too. But as with charity events, you're dependent on the beneficiary's assurances that the money will go where they say it goes. Though to their credit, some charities, such as American Cancer Society and Feed a Smile, have done a great job with that. But I'd feel funny having a fundraiser to "Save the Amusement Park" when that seems like an endeavor that in any reasonable circumstance would pay for itself.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:49 PM   #9 (permalink)
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One area that I'd appreciate, but probably 99.999% of other SL'ers could care less about - paying to join a group that would allow me to rez on your sim, even if in a very restricted space.

Reason? My horse avatar can be ridden, but only by rezzing a vehicle that myself and my rider can hop on. A good friend of mine and I love to explore new places, but usually end up just walking separately. That doesn't do much of anything regarding the OP, but just thought I'd throw it out there if you happen to own a nicely decorated sim made for wandering around.

BTW, I will typically drop some L$ in a sim donation box if I really appreciate the place. However, again, I'm in that .001%, I'm sure.

ETA: I've been in SL (in various avs) since 2007 and I didn't realize that top performers require a payment up front. I always assumed they all worked for tips. So, at least I've learned something.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Oh yes. There's one very popular (and with an ego to match) performer who charges L$15000 per show. Not worth it, but some people do pay. The rest of the popular performers charge L$5000-8000. You have some decent folks in the L$3000-4000 range. Below that, hold your ears.

The musician I work for charges L$5000 for an hour show. Considering she has starred on Broadway, that price is a steal. She does it to bring her music to people who might not otherwise get to hear it, for the various reasons some people are in SL. But like most musicians, she's far from rich - the money helps out a bit, and she deserves to be paid fairly for her time.

All of the musicians I know and hear ask the audience to tip the venue. But that doesn't mean the audience does so.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:07 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I am quite honestly amazed at how many people there are in Second Life who are willing to donate money they don't have to donate.

I was co-owner of a club that, in addition to taking tip cuts, had one of those donation thermometers. There were quite a few times where people would ask me why I am asking donations when a club is a for-profit business. I would not only explain that the club routinely lost money, but I was also happy to divulge some income and expense numbers. It actually made sense to some people and led to donation.

Quite frankly, I did not realize the true expenses of providing entertainment in Second Life until I became involved in providing the entertainment. I have noticed that many current or former club owners are also great tippers/donors when they are out at other venues.

People are more free with their money when they understand the costs of providing entertainment. And when the understand that venues may rely on donations to exist. And when they believe their donations may make the difference between a venue disappearing or continuing. And when they feel like they are donating because they are generous people, rather than because they owe someone something.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:11 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck View Post
One area that I'd appreciate, but probably 99.999% of other SL'ers could care less about - paying to join a group that would allow me to rez on your sim, even if in a very restricted space.

Reason? My horse avatar can be ridden, but only by rezzing a vehicle that myself and my rider can hop on. A good friend of mine and I love to explore new places, but usually end up just walking separately. That doesn't do much of anything regarding the OP, but just thought I'd throw it out there if you happen to own a nicely decorated sim made for wandering around.

BTW, I will typically drop some L$ in a sim donation box if I really appreciate the place. However, again, I'm in that .001%, I'm sure.

ETA: I've been in SL (in various avs) since 2007 and I didn't realize that top performers require a payment up front. I always assumed they all worked for tips. So, at least I've learned something.
I'm with Buck on pretty much all of what he said.

Let me pay to join a group and have rez rights to a certain extent. I've met Buck in-world, and I'd love nothing better than to ride him.

Errr, ride the horse.


UHHHMMMMM, ride his avie......


DAMMIT, You know what I meant!!!!

For theatrical venues, YES! I'll pay a few bucks to get in to see you perform. Please give me about 3 days of several times to chose from though. I know that lessens your profits. Maybe make those times specific for world-wide attendance.

I really don't see why we can't have "pay-for-venues". It would help with tier for sure.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:22 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Part of the problem is that SL lacks good ways to advertise. People shell out $100 for Disneyland because they know what kind of experience they'll be getting. On the other hand, I've teleported to many places and events in SL that purported to be amazing, but were actually lousy. Perhaps limited time previews would work? 10 minutes free at the location to see if it appeals to you, then day pass and annual pass options.
Nonsense, SL has an excellent way to advertise. Your venue has a group. If people are in your group its safe to assume they are there to get information on what is going on. I know I'm in half a dozen club/show groups so I can get these updates. Many nights my partner and I will plan and entire evening about what shows up in our group messages.

But on the same hand you don't wan to over use group messages because then they become spam. As a messaging tool group messages are a awesome form of direct marketing. I would treat group messages like TV commercials make them entertaining too.

But the problem with group message is for people to join the group they have to know about it first. Take your advertising out side of SL then. Sponsor an ad on SLU.

Quote:
Crowdfunding could be a solution too. But as with charity events, you're dependent on the beneficiary's assurances that the money will go where they say it goes. Though to their credit, some charities, such as American Cancer Society and Feed a Smile, have done a great job with that. But I'd feel funny having a fundraiser to "Save the Amusement Park" when that seems like an endeavor that in any reasonable circumstance would pay for itself.
To me if you are going to think about crowdfunding might as well set the tip jar up and stick with that.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
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One of my partner's and my favorite things to do is the MadPea hunts. They're different then the 'just tp to stores and find the object' hunts in that they have a storyline and are very engaging. And you get awesome prizes. Each hunt has a HUD and there is usually a charge of L$150 for the HUD. These hunts are usually packed. Because they are very entertaining and aren't finished in just one hour. We've already worked on one for a few days before completing it. People, from what I have seen, are willing to pay a nominal fee such as that to be entertained. However, it needs to be done right. It needs to be difficult, but not so difficult that you give up out of pure frustration.

As for live events, I'd be willing to pay a small fee, too. I don't know that I'd be willing to pay thousands of lindens, though, without knowing if the music is actually any good or whether or not I really will be entertained. I think that's part of the dilemma...are you really going to BE entertained by what you're paying for? I've heard some live musicians in SL which were, I have to say, not very good at all. I wouldn't have been happy had I blown what amounts to $10 of RL money to hear someone who can't carry a tune. If I wanted that, I'd entertain myself by singing in the shower...for free.

I'm sure some people never spend a linden in SL. I tend to spent an entertainment budget in SL, but mostly on clothes, hair, skins, shoes, home deco, etc. I also have an SL job now which helps fund my shopping habit. However, not everyone WANTS SL to be a job to them, in any way. And, I'm not sure I can fault them for that. Some people just want 'fun' and you're not going to change that. At this point, if LL starts some sort of required 'pay to play' model, I think they'll end up losing people, which will put a ding in the pocketbooks of not only LL itself, but also the creators who make what people like to buy.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:30 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Since I've been a "Freetard" in SL since 2007, I need to make something quite clear.

Yes, there are many avies who will tp in somewhere that has a nice freebie, and just grab it and run. There are many self entitled asswipes who will even criticize those freebies....I should point out that they are a smaller part of the same group.

But the only folks who live in SL totally FREE are the ones who are doing the ripping. Plus, I think they're only here to do that, and be douche bags.

I've been a freetard for a loooong time now, and I can tell you for sure that nobody legitimately uses SL for zero Lindens. Ever.

Sure, we might have for a little while. In 2007 or some of 2008. But then we started getting all of these daily sales. Limited time reduced prices. Limited time availability.

I have a freebie blog feed. I would love to have some blogs that only post freebies. Sorry y'all, that doesn't exist these days.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:01 PM   #17 (permalink)
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An achievement system has some potential but sim owners, store owners and community managers would want to be able to tailor them for their own customer base, which could get quite messy and convoluted.

The free to play model Second Life employs works well. People spend a lot of money on virtual goods, services and land.

Entertainment and something to do sims fall in the tier is too damn high category. I'm not really sure what LL can do at this stage. In the past they've discussed allowing people to donate their mainland tier to estate land, but obviously that hits LL's bottom line as they make money from people who don't use all of their tier allowance.

Personally I think entertainment sims should be able to open a few days a week and only be charged tier for a few days a week, plus a small admin charge for using that option.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
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So you can't tell me there are not some people willing to pay to get in to see something, if its good.
I didn't say no one would pay; I said the vast majority will not pay for experiences. That means some will. That is generally around 10%.

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The problem is the tip culture in SL.
This issue comes up over and over. People always blame something like tip culture or camping chairs or something else. The reality is that back in the 2006/2007 era when there were a lot more people spending a lot more money in SL and the SL music scene was tickling the interest of the RL music industry, many people tried many different ways to make music in SL profitable. I'm not just talking about people who tried to force SL to meet their vision; I'm talking about very creative promoters who did everything right (great builds for their era -- the highest quality performers available -- bonanza advertising, etc). Even when it works (which is rare), it's just too much effort for not enough reward and it's always short term. Crowds get burned out, and SL attendance is often seasonal.

There is no uniform experience and there are way more awful/bad performers and venues than there are good ones, so few people are going to trust enough to pay a cover or entrance fee. Those places that stay are vanity projects and labors of love that work hard to get a loyal base with as many superconsumers as possible. It's very much like RP SIMs, while there are a handful of success stories, few are profitable at all and fewer are profitable enough to be worth all the work that goes into it long-term.

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One of my partner's and my favorite things to do is the MadPea hunts...And you get awesome prizes. Each hunt has a HUD and there is usually a charge of L$150 for the HUD.
But, see, many (if not most) of the people who pay/play are going for the stuff, not the experience.

The main thing about experiences and venues is that the vast majority of people in SL are looking for connection; they want attention and to feel they are participating in the experience. I did an experiment once at my venue. I left out the normal tip jar, but I also added another tip jar that showed the profile photo of the tipper. The regular people that supported my venue for years all used the regular tip jar (and paid, on average L$500 - L$1k per tip). New people or one-time visitors almost always used the photo tip jar and generally tipped between L$25 and L$50.

The performers in SL that are most "successful" are usually not the best singers or the best DJs or the best with their instruments. They are the ones who know how to call out the names of their fans in the middle of songs, who flirt with all the girls as a part time job, who generally play the social game very well. It doesn't matter what venue they play at; what matters is that they cultivate a following and reward that following with attention. Attention is the most valuable currency for the vast majority of people in SL. And paying attention to enough people to keep a venue/project going without selling merch is too much work for too little profit.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:49 PM   #19 (permalink)
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It may take someone months if not longer to realize that SL content wasn't built by some unknown corporate entity. I get questions many times from even 'oldbies' who wonder why homes, shoes, skirts, necklaces, what-have-you haven't been "standardized" yet... To which I proceed to teach them about resident content creators... Something they'd never heard of before. (>_<)

Now, put that on land. Think about all the people who think it's their "right" to be somewhere and that nobody inworld should have the power to ban them. Honestly, they don't even have a hint of reason regarding how much 'public' land there is. They almost only assume that all land is public and oddly powerful jerks are just getting in the way of their access. (._.)

In my opinion, this is what happens when SL is thought of as a game. When viewed from the context of a game-world, which has a cohesive team of developers and content creators. A game world, which typically means access to log in = access to the entire map. A game world, where money is a prize for defeating NPCs or following arbitrary recipes to generate pre-made items. The fact that these game world things are essentially missing from SL leads to a deep disappointment for many users expecting to be able to "play". (._.)

And LL isn't helping. The utter lack of instruction upon entering SL leaves people to hold on to these game world preconceptions. It allows people to believe they have to predisposition to have anything inworld simply on the basis that they've been able to log in. (>_<)
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:07 PM   #20 (permalink)
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EA spends north of 100 million dollars on games, and can't figure out how to get people to play subscription instead of freemium.

On top of that, say you *did* decide to get rid of 'freetards'...

...just what could possibly be done? As long as there are creator permissions, 'free' is a permanent fixture.







This does bring up a question, though. Just when is the honeymoon over for <latest CEO> and when do we start holding him accountable for stuff? The entire company and world is 'his policy' now, and has been for some time.

It's an open question.

I am, quite frankly, a bit shocked he didn't change the 'we can exploit your content any way we want' service terms during the first week, maybe within a day or so of un~muzzling the staff. But as for changing 'free culture'... I'm not sure any CEO can ever change their customer culture quickly or at all.
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:04 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Derp. Not even gonna go back there.

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Old 02-25-2014, 12:14 AM   #22 (permalink)
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freetard is a disgusting term.


I don't think people should be funding venues that don't pay for themselves. I am an adult, and I don't really need someone funding entertainment for me. I spend my time with my friends in SL and we have a blast, just talking, or maybe going shopping.

Look, land is cheap and plentiful. People have houses if they want them and if they don't have one a friend has one. People hang out in private areas, they can play their own music and dance there. The reason SL "looks so empty" even though it isn't, is because people are living private lives in SL with the people they want to spend time. The market has changed, people need to face facts.

If it doesn't make dollars, it doesn't make sense. Stop having venues that are not making money. Dwell is over. Ratings are over. You can't just build it and they will come and make a profit or even break even in SL, it has been over for like a decade, people need to get over it.
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Old 02-25-2014, 12:42 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I have a question vaguely related to this. In venues where there is a performer (Say a DJ at a dance club.) are tip cuts for the club's upkeep an accepted practice? If so, what is usually a customary percentage?
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Old 02-25-2014, 12:49 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Nobody wants to go sit and listen to some douchebag play a guitar over his mic. If I'm going to pay money to do that, I'd rather just pay my friend to do it for me, or go to a cheap concert.

You are mistaking SL for RL. Clubs and venues don't make money on the cover charge. Often they lose money on it. They make money on the ancillaries, mostly alcoholic. SL does not have that benefit. The performer isn't the product - the performer is just the magnet. Even most performers know they don't make money on concerts; they make their money on the merchandising. Shirts, hoodies, and other swag. Often they make more money on that than their own albums.

If you are unwilling to shell out a terribly high US$20/performance yourself, you need a cover charge in SL. Without one, you will fail. You need to make an effort at hosting an event - not just setting up a performance or rezzing a contest board - to compete. There is planning involved. Grassroots advertising. Custom venue preparation. Professional, trained staff to oversee the event who are willing to work in exchange for the performance or a very small fee (as you said, people need SL jobs, and you are in the position to make some). But you need a cover charge, and if you lose your "business", then the hard truth is that you shouldn't be in business in the first place. Other venue owners who are successful are only successful because they break a profit (extremely rare - think megaclubs with huge fanbases, like GYC) or they are happy with paying the costs. Never rely on donations for anything.

I helped host a product release event that we hyped up for weeks beforehand. Through an agreement with a currently-existing region (they host us in exchange for the advertising of the venue) we custom built a stage, developed security protocols for the event, advertised heavily in our group and the venue's group, wrote speeches, bought a shoutcast server, and custom scripted a ton of equipment (stage lights, pyrotechnics, text PA system, TV cameras, etc.) We could have even streamed the event live ourselves (and in retrospect, should have). When the start time came, the sim was 100% full - we had to eject some people to get the presenters in. We experienced some small technical faults due to the massive crowd (we had to instruct the security staff to start ejecting people who were topping the script time charts) but everyone loved it. We tried to host a Q&A afterward but everyone was just chatting so much that it was practically impossible to handle. We had a chat recorder out at the time, and I believe it ran out of memory about halfway through the show.

That was in 2011, and 3 years later, people still talk about it. It was unquestionably the biggest event in our little subculture of a community and probably will be for years to come. It's an example of how hard work and effort can stuff a venue, even in the middle of a weekday.

On top of that, I visited your sims, and it looks as if you bought a bunch of prefabs in 2009 and never bothered doing anything since. I could not find a single mesh anywhere. It looks remarkably mediocre and there was simply nothing to do there. It's not a place I would even idle at. SL moves at a very fast pace, and long-term property investments don't exist. You need to update.

Oh, and amusement parks are not a "great business".

Last edited by Nelson Jenkins; 02-25-2014 at 02:52 AM. Reason: god can i not be a perfectionist please
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Old 02-25-2014, 02:33 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesla View Post
I have a question vaguely related to this. In venues where there is a performer (Say a DJ at a dance club.) are tip cuts for the club's upkeep an accepted practice? If so, what is usually a customary percentage?

Many, MANY clubs do this. The vast majority in fact. Usually it's 10-20 percent.

For the record, and I've stated this many times, my club takes no cut from anyone. I pay my staff, and employees retain 100% of their tips.
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