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Old 09-29-2013, 01:19 PM   #76 (permalink)
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It was probably ESO I was thinking of, as I haven't played Saints Row 3 in years. ESO has a height slider. It doesn't have a huge range, but there is a noticeable amount of height difference.

and very true about animations and height. I'm not sure how ESO is handling it.

And I'm one of the picky ones who hates too-long arms. I don't know why so many put the hands reaching down to the knees. That's just way too long. When I stand up straight, the hand comes just below the hip. That's where I like to see it.
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Old 09-29-2013, 01:35 PM   #77 (permalink)
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It was probably ESO I was thinking of, as I haven't played Saints Row 3 in years. ESO has a height slider. It doesn't have a huge range, but there is a noticeable amount of height difference.

and very true about animations and height. I'm not sure how ESO is handling it.

And I'm one of the picky ones who hates too-long arms. I don't know why so many put the hands reaching down to the knees. That's just way too long. When I stand up straight, the hand comes just below the hip. That's where I like to see it.
The average person's fingertips reach about mid-thigh. Well below your hip, but not nearly as far as your knees. Another way to measure is by taking your height and turning it sideways. With you arms stretched out to either side, your "wingspan" should be about equal to your height, give or take a couple of inches.

Most avatar arms look way too short but you have to take the entire body as a whole to determine why that is.

Most avatars have legs fully twice as long as they ought to be, if the legs are skewed long then that makes arms look too short. If you're going to stylize someone with long legs, you need to keep the arms proportionate to the legs.

There's also the issue of torso length, most avatars have short torsos.

Well, to make it short, on the average SL avatar ALL of the proportions are messed up right from the start, making it impossible to create a well proportioned shape without adjusting everything, step by step, until you've created an entirely new shape. Again, all of this could be avoided with a well made appearance editor.

I'd go with giving people more options, but also providing them with a basic and advanced interface and all of the guides and tools they need to make educated decisions.
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Old 09-29-2013, 05:19 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Yes that's again why the idea is to have everything as open as possible. There is really no 'system' to it. It's just people agreeing on a blank canvas to use. What they do with that canvas, is completely up to them, and can lead to an infinite multitude of possibilities, that can co-exist with each other.

People seem to be getting fixated on this idea that there will be "one body with one skin, and one face" but that is *exactly* what all of this would be working to avoid.

A common base mesh could be altered by anyone to be anything, but still retain compatibility and interoperability between other modifications made using the same base mesh. And everything would be tied together by the system baked texture.

Really the key first step is getting LL to move on the scripted portion, as without that, it's highly unlikely any of the rest can or will occur. I'm really more interested in concerns centered around that at this point.
Sorry for jumping the gun and everything , i haven't read the whole thread but i must reply before i lose train of thoughts:

It's a rather brilliant idea, if i understand it right. The new LSL code would mean that you could essentially wear *any* avatar mesh you want, as long as it has the same UV mapping as the standard LL AV.

That mesh could then come in any shape, and in any size. Anyone who makes mesh avatars now, could use their correctly UV mapped mesh, and get system clothes to work on it.

You could have standardisation, and you could have nearly the opposite- every mesh creator could make an av that would be able to wear the system clothes. With boobs butts and fattyness and whatever you might like.
System clothing would get another huge lift, like when Lolas became popular. System clothes makers would get lots of new business.

There's two con's that i can think of:
1. The UV mapping on the SL avatar is far from great, it would be pretty bad to drag on with it forever.
2. The current standard sizing might, or might not work with it.
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Old 09-29-2013, 05:24 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Oh, and another thing about avatar 2.0:
I once asked in one of the beta users group about what LL thought of eventually making some type of avatar 2.0. The response was that while they can't do it themselves, if presented with a new working model, it would definitely be considered.
How about you show up on Tuesday at the scripting meeting, and show your idea, Darien?
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Old 09-29-2013, 05:34 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Oh, and another thing about avatar 2.0:
I once asked in one of the beta users group about what LL thought of eventually making some type of avatar 2.0. The response was that while they can't do it themselves, if presented with a new working model, it would definitely be considered.
How about you show up on Tuesday at the scripting meeting, and show your idea, Darien?
Well, that's why I brought it up here first, I wanted feedback to see If there were any angles I was missing, and there does seem to be a couple. Once work the kinks out I likely will.
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Old 09-29-2013, 05:51 PM   #81 (permalink)
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I think the missing angles are in some cases a catch 22 on LL's side. Like:

* LL doesn't like to change things, so they don't want to change to any new standard UV mapping (omg because it breaks old content), but on the other hand, they don't want to keep the current UV mapping either since they know it's awful, so weather you pick to keep it, or to change it, both is wrong.

* You propose a change, that takes a bit of work on their side (new LSL functions) and they don't have time for that/it's not on their roadmap, so if you can do it yourself and present results, then great.

On the other hand, LL doesn't want to accept full technical solutions from residents, so you might get stuck there. The worst part is if they see value in it, decide to make changes but their own way, and in the process nerf the function of whats suggested so badly, that not only will it be useless to begin with but also never get a chance to be re-done. (example: pathfinding)

Neither of the above is within your control really, just how things roll. me myself, i would like to see two new avatar meshes (male and female) to be used alongside with LL's default ones. So you could pick either one of the 4 in the appearance editor, and stuff made would be for either new, or old avatar mesh. I bet people will start screaming "omg confusing!" yet somehow we manage to understand all other pre-requisites in shopping, like understanding that if some clothes are said to fit Slink mesh feet, we use them for Slink feet. if the outfit requires Lolas, we use Lolas.... Wouldn't be so much different if it said " made to work for avatar 2.0"
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:47 PM   #82 (permalink)
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I'm sticking with <UTILIZATOR> - Avatar 2.0 - beta

as I'm currently able to work on it about anyway I need too texture wise. so far, Luskwood skunk, converted to use it, Uchi Chinchilla converted to use it.

The clothing that I know works that works with the LL avatar and works for the avatar 2.0 from uti

Apricot paws, mesh jeans/mesh hoodie (medium)
Whoops Socks- Rigged mesh socks
Most of damien fates rigged mesh, (medium)

I've got some other outfits that work perfectly fine with out having to hide the body with the hud, I'll edit this post and get them inserted into this post in a bit.

Andrea Skunk and Dani Maus


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Old 09-29-2013, 11:12 PM   #83 (permalink)
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The Utilizator "Avatar 2.0" is a nice piece of work, but it's not nearly as far reaching or universal as what's being proposed in this thread. I've toyed around with that avatar and...frankly I can't use it. It's too limited.

Of course, one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, drawback to mesh right now is LL's incomprehensible reluctance to make mesh compatible with the appearance sliders.

I've rarely seen a company so intent on reducing the appeal of the only product they're known for.
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Old 09-29-2013, 11:23 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Actually that avatar is some of the worst mesh weighting I've seen. They seem to think all the joints should have perfect graduations of weighting all across all sides of the joint, leading to 'smooth macaroni bending' at every joint.

Sadly that's the complete opposite of what you want for realistic bending. When joints bend, sharp creases should form on the inside of the bend. That's how the human body appears when bent.

You can say a lot of very true things about LL's avatar having shortcomings, but the weighting isn't one of them, they did an excellent job of simulating joint bends with their weighting. (or paid someone to do it, whichever)
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:39 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Actually that avatar is some of the worst mesh weighting I've seen. They seem to think all the joints should have perfect graduations of weighting all across all sides of the joint, leading to 'smooth macaroni bending' at every joint.

Sadly that's the complete opposite of what you want for realistic bending. When joints bend, sharp creases should form on the inside of the bend. That's how the human body appears when bent.

You can say a lot of very true things about LL's avatar having shortcomings, but the weighting isn't one of them, they did an excellent job of simulating joint bends with their weighting. (or paid someone to do it, whichever)

I know, trust me, I know, I get people who bitch at me every once in a while telling me I could do better or find better. but this is pretty damn good and the other 2 mesh bodies I have, do not allow me to change the texture, I got to use some type of damn hud or applier, buzzzz sorry charlie, if I can not make a custom skin, I'm not using it.

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Old 09-30-2013, 02:55 AM   #86 (permalink)
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I think LL should update the current avatar system rather than replace it. Really it only needs small tweaks to make it a lot better, including:

More polygons, so that joints flex more smoothly, but done so existing textures still fit.

A reworking of the basic shape to amend the awkward areas.

A method of making mesh clothes fit the body automatically so you don't need an alpha layer. This could also be used to prevent flexi-mesh hair (which we don't have yet!) from flopping inside or through our bodies!

The ability to texture the left and right arms (and feet) separately.

The ability to set the standard posture of the avatar, that is transferred to all animations. For example, with a fat avatar, the arms could be held outwards clear of the body. Or an elderly avatar could be given a stoop.

The ability to make an avatar shiny, so that skin could be given a slight natural sheen or even adjusted to look wet, for example.

A collection of free full-perms hair and clothes meshes supplied by LL in the library when you join.

Also the addition of a 'standard quaruped' avatar shape that can be changed with sliders into any sort of animal would, I think, be very popular. Some animals, like elephants and crocodiles, might be beyond the scope, but dogs, cats, rabbits and horses should be achievable from the same basic starting shape.

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Old 09-30-2013, 06:22 AM   #87 (permalink)
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The Utilizer avatar is great for what it is, which is an anime avatar. It is also affordable and working with it is easy if you don't like asymmetry. And its adorable.

But for most folks, it isn't a viable option at all.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:46 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Actually, now that i think of it, Dariens suggestion would make it possible for ANY Uv mapping to use system layers. So you could have Utilizator (not the current one though, i'll explain later) mesh AV, and use system clothes created specifically for their UV layout. Those system clothes would look wrong on a generic avatar, but would layer just right when applied on the custom mesh av.

The pre-requisite to make this work, would be to use exactly the same amount of faces as the SL avatar, with the seam between them where it is now, and the same limit in texture size. So the custom mesh avatar would still need a head, and upper and a lower body face, but aside that, the texture mapping would be up to the mesh creator. They could either use LL's UV mapping, and allow the user to use *any* legacy clothes they want, or just use the baking function with layering, but with any UV mapping they want.

So even with non-standard av's, and new UV mapping, those LSL functions would be a very good step up, both creativity wise, increased/improved functionality AND culling redundant , overlapping meshes (like the ass and legs and boob meshes where you need a separate mesh structure for each clothing layer AND you need to use appliers)
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:52 AM   #89 (permalink)
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I think LL should update the current avatar system rather than replace it. Really it only needs small tweaks to make it a lot better, including:

  • Long list of things that LL has already declined, or that has been made and didn't work well enough (mesh deformer).
When you say you ask for small tweaks, don't ask for a total overhaul.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:43 AM   #90 (permalink)
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Couple of other things you might want to think about, Make-Human just opened up the license on their Avatar (not the morph targets or program) so you would only have to make an open source SL avatar compatible UV map if such isn't available already.

Also a expansion of Lex's comment, a function to bake multiple purchased textures together can have many more uses than just avatar appearance bakes.
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:01 AM   #91 (permalink)
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When you say you ask for small tweaks, don't ask for a total overhaul.
Well, I suppose yes, but what I meant is that it would be nice if the existing system could be improved rather than starting with a completely new system.
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:06 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Also a expansion of Lex's comment, a function to bake multiple purchased textures together can have many more uses than just avatar appearance bakes.
While i've always though it would be great to have layering on regular prims as well, LL has never even hinted a glimpse of that being possible.

I'm not exactly sure why, but now that several textures can be applied on the same surface (advanced lighting model), maybe it could be technically possible to for an example, put a 16 bit alpha graffiti texture onto an underlying brick texture, and that being baked.

Otherwise, baking textures together would require that ... you wear them on the avatar as a system layer.... So wear the brick, wear the graffiti and then... apply the bake on a prim... Since only the avatar allows to use several system layers and only those are being baked together into a single displayed texture. (well not single, but one for each avatar part).

I think part of Dariens argument is that the baked textures should not be possible to apply onto a prim, and making it dead simple to copy every skin texture and outfit, with something as silly as just taking a snapshot.

Also that the baked texture the avatar wears should only be seen when that avatar is present on the sim (making it harder to grab other peoples bakes).
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:15 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Well, I suppose yes, but what I meant is that it would be nice if the existing system could be improved rather than starting with a completely new system.
Yes, i understand that, but your list doesn't suggest small remakes or improvements, it calls for total overhauls.

Several items on the list (like making separate textures for each arm) mean the UV mapping has to be changed, and if it's changed on the standard AV, that means it breaks ALL existing shirts/tops/gloves/whatever and nobody would be able to wear them again.

None of what you wrote is a "little tweak", and a few are directly redundant, like the quad avatar, which is just animations. Those already exist, and work just fine as it is.
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:35 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Couple of other things you might want to think about, Make-Human just opened up the license on their Avatar (not the morph targets or program) so you would only have to make an open source SL avatar compatible UV map if such isn't available already.

Also a expansion of Lex's comment, a function to bake multiple purchased textures together can have many more uses than just avatar appearance bakes.
Makehuman is a decent model, however I personally think it's a bit on the heavy side for SL. And by Heavy I mean too many polygons.



While it's at a pretty good level for rendering and video/movie scene animation, that kind of poly density isn't that good for a dynamic 3D world like SL. It could definitely be used as a starting point, but would need some rework to reduce the poly count.


And, while I understand people's desire as far as 'baking textures' for prim usage, really there's far better ways to handle that (layering in Photoshop/Gimp/etc for instance) Trying to turn SL into a paint program is probably beyond the scope of the discussion.
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Old 09-30-2013, 11:30 AM   #95 (permalink)
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about the painting

maybe LL can upgrade the skin module in the editor. so that can apply eyeshadow, blush and lipstick. say like as a tattoo that you can texture/tint and then bake

if did that then can do body shading/ body art the same way a bit like tattoos but more like layers. same like in gimp/photoshop the way eloh eliot skins work in the psds. so can enhance/dehance by tinting or by apply a texture to the layer

then bake it all when you save
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:31 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Makehuman is a decent model, however I personally think it's a bit on the heavy side for SL. And by Heavy I mean too many polygons.
Way to heavy :/
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Old 09-30-2013, 07:22 PM   #97 (permalink)
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After i thought about it, with the possible exception of applying blended permissions you could do every thing Darien is proposing client side. Then you just have to get an opinion from LL as to if it is a ripper client.

If you can get a exception from LL for the common experience part of the TOS (say call it an experimental viewer) then you don't even need to reupload the blended textures

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Old 09-30-2013, 08:10 PM   #98 (permalink)
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A small update:

With Jack's thoughts in mind about "what if someone sold an applied baked texture", I looked to see if that would even be possible.

Luckily, it appears it would not be. The reason is, the baked textures seem to be coming from a different source than normal textures. They are only loaded by the viewer if an avatar utilizing that baked texture is in view. So any attempt to sell a prim/sculpt/mesh with a baked texture pre-applied would fail, as the recipient would only get grey nothingness, unless they just so happened to be standing next to the avatar who's bake was being used, and they just so happened to have that outfit on at the time.

As well, another gotcha cropped up:
Suppose you wanted to wear an arm replacer. So you put on an alpha layer to hide the original arm, and wear the new arm that applies your baked texture.

Uh oh, the baked texture has the alpha layer included, so now the new arm is transparent too.

Luckily there is also a solution to this, with the release of Advanced materials. A prim/sculpt/mesh face can be set to ignore the alpha portion of a texture, even if it's present. Such a face can still be hidden/shown using llSetAlpha() or similar functions. The only problem that might arise is if partial alpha is somehow part of the normal texture (like eyelashes). But for 99% of content, that wouldn't be an issue.

So that's two potential problems that have satisfactory solutions already in place.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:27 AM   #99 (permalink)
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A small update:
So that's two potential problems that have satisfactory solutions already in place.
The biggest problem of them all, one of which I despair anyone will ever find a solution to, is LL itself and its inability to listen, let alone understand, to its customers' needs. This is the company that introduced mesh and thought it was not going to be used for clothing...
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:45 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Suppose you wanted to wear an arm replacer. So you put on an alpha layer to hide the original arm, and wear the new arm that applies your baked texture.

Uh oh, the baked texture has the alpha layer included, so now the new arm is transparent too.

Luckily there is also a solution to this, with the release of Advanced materials. A prim/sculpt/mesh face can be set to ignore the alpha portion of a texture, even if it's present. Such a face can still be hidden/shown using llSetAlpha() or similar functions. The only problem that might arise is if partial alpha is somehow part of the normal texture (like eyelashes). But for 99% of content, that wouldn't be an issue.
There's a much easier fix for it, if it's possible to wear an outdated bake (they all saved for later re-use, right?). Wear the skin, tattoos etc. that you need, add the arm replacement. Texture gets baked, apply the current bake. Then add the alphas.

Unless the arm is scripted to continuously and automatically update to the current bake, then the first applied bake should stick, and not be affected with later added alphas.
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