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Old 09-08-2013, 08:37 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Second Life license change implies they can resell your content.

6th September 2013: Terms of Service update, using our images in Second Life is no longer allowed.

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What has changed?
From 6 September 2013 you are no longer permitted to add our images to Second Life or other Linden Labs products. The use of textures downloaded prior to this date is allowed.


Why am I no longer allowed to use your images in Second Life?
On the 15th of August 2013, Linden Labs changed their Terms of Use without any announcement or warning. One of the changes is the rights that Linden Labs claims when you upload your work:

2.3 You grant Linden Lab certain licenses to your User Content.

[..]you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, sell, re-sell, sublicense (through multiple levels), modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same. You agree that the license includes the right to copy, analyze and use any of your Content as Linden Lab may deem necessary or desirable for purposes of debugging, testing, or providing support or development services in connection with the Service and future improvements to the Service.[..]

As you can see from the highlighted portions, as soon as you upload any content to Second Life you give Linden Labs unlimited and irrevocable rights to do whatever they want with your work.
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:48 AM   #2 (permalink)
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We went through it all in this thread Argent, after a necro post!

Best Texture Creators?
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:39 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Wonder if Cristiano could lift out that part and do a thread merge?
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Old 09-08-2013, 10:19 AM   #4 (permalink)
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No, I searched for a similar thread, but "Best Texture Creators" is kind of an obscure place to find one.

Edit: OK, the big change is replacing "solely for the purposes of providing and promoting the Service" with a longer sentence that implies they can use it for any purpose, and to add "sell and re-sell".

Yeh, this is kind of turning evil. I wonder if it's in preparation for transferring the content in SL to a new service. It's kind of bizarre, though, since this change in the TOS can't apply to existing content and it'll take years for enough new content to show up to make it worthwhile.

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:10 AM   #5 (permalink)
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"this change in the TOS can't apply to existing content"
I was wondering about that. I would be shocked if it could be applied retrospectively, but ...

Isn't this rather like the content ToS change that Facebook had to retract?
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:05 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Linden Lab is always putting nonsense in their TOS that won't stand up in court. Everything they wrote there goes against the DMCA laws.
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Linden Lab is always putting nonsense in their TOS that won't stand up in court. Everything they wrote there goes against the DMCA laws.
Assuming it was even meant the way Argent and others are deciding to interpret it.

I already laid out how it reads to me in the other thread, so I'll just repaste that here, buffet style:

Quote:
Um, this isn't new. it's been in the TOS for several years. And no it doesn't break the TOS of content creators.

I'm really surprised people are saying this, yet again. (same false argument came up last time LL updated the TOS).

All the terms say is that LL has the right to reproduce the content for the purpose of redistribution. (and that means displaying it on the viewer).

Because there are a myriad of ways content is transformed during display (and will be more in the future), they just make it explicitly clear that they have the right to do so.

It's not in any way saying you no longer have ownership of copyright on any works you create and upload to SL. You still do. No TOS can take that from you.
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I found a copy of the previous LL license, and while the wording is slightly different, the spirit is the same. They have the same legal meaning:

(from TOS archive: Linden Lab Official:Terms of Service Archive/Through 6 May 2013 - Second Life Wiki )

Quote:
7.2 You grant certain Content licenses to Linden Lab by submitting your Content to the Service.
You agree that by uploading, publishing, or submitting any Content to or through the Servers, Websites, or other areas of the Service, you hereby automatically grant Linden Lab a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sublicenseable, and transferable license to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the Content solely for the purposes of providing and promoting the Service.
You understand that this license enables Linden Lab to display, distribute, promote, and improve the Service. You agree that the license includes the right to copy, analyze and use any of your Content as Linden Lab may deem necessary or desirable for purposes of debugging, testing, or providing support or development services in connection with the Service and future improvements to the Service. The license granted in this Section 7.2 is referred to as the "Service Content License."
Also you guys are overlooking the very prominent first part of the current TOS:
Quote:
2.3 You grant Linden Lab certain licenses to your User Content.
You retain any and all Intellectual Property Rights you already hold under applicable law in Content you upload, publish, and submit to or through the Servers, Websites, and other areas of the Service, subject to the rights, licenses, and other terms of this Agreement, including any underlying rights of other users or Linden Lab in Content that you may use or modify.
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Well you had better not ever use any service on the internet, ever then. A sampling of a few:

Deviantart:

Quote:
you grant to deviantART a non-exclusive, royalty-free license to reproduce, distribute, re-format, store, prepare derivative works based on, and publicly display and perform Your Content.
Youtube:

Quote:
you hereby grant YouTube a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicenseable and transferable license to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the Content in connection with the Service and YouTube's (and its successors' and affiliates') business, including without limitation for promoting and redistributing part or all of the Service (and derivative works thereof) in any media formats and through any media channels
Steam (user generated content section):

Quote:
You grant Valve and its affiliates the non-exclusive, irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and publicly perform, your User Generated Content, and derivative works of your User Generated Content, in connection with the operation and promotion of the Steam site
Wordings vary but intent is the same. get a license to display what you upload and cover their ass.
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and about "Sell, Resell", they have to add that, because SL has an economy. You don't actually sell anything, It's all sold for you by LL. When someone pays you L$, it's LL who goes through the processes of transferring the content from their server to the purchaser's inventory. And in the case of MP, they get a share of that sale. On MP purchases, they are basically selling it for you, by proxy (think consignment store). Nobody is actually physically present selling things on SL.

And too, the current TOS is currently semi-generic to cover more than Second Life. so they probably had to make it overly broad for that reason.

As for Exploit in any manner, I already explained that but I'll repeat:

Quote:
Because there are a myriad of ways content is transformed during display (and will be more in the future), they just make it explicitly clear that they have the right to do so.
Exploit just means to utilize. Say later they add the mesh deformer, that fundamentally alters your creation from it's original shape, that is exploiting your content to make something new, in technical terms.

Sadly Lawyers like to use terms that are not layman friendly. But what you gonna do?


So in short, nothing of importance has changed. Move along, nothing to see here.
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Best check the other thread to see other answers to Darien's posts. Darien believes that anything other than her interpretation is a misinterpration. However, that's not entirely the case and despite the "spirit" of the TOS which no-one really knows except those that wrote it, it's a significant enough change to make other parties change their TOS to exclude the use of their products in SL from now on.

You'll also notice that Darien doesn't post any parts of those other companies TOSs that refer to allowing them to resell items you upload to their servers.
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Old 09-08-2013, 01:17 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OrinB View Post
Best check the other thread to see other answers to Darien's posts. Darien believes that anything other than her interpretation is a misinterpration. However, that's not entirely the case and despite the "spirit" of the TOS which no-one really knows except those that wrote it, it's a significant enough change to make other parties change their TOS to exclude the use of their products in SL from now on.

You'll also notice that Darien doesn't post any parts of those other companies TOSs that refer to allowing them to resell items you upload to their servers.
Plus despite what the "spirit" of a legal document, that is what it is, a legal document. Lawyers are VERY finicky about the exact words used and hew to what a document says, not what someone assumes was going through the mind of the person who wrote it. Even if LL's legal team was being sloppy in their wording the lawyers for other companies would have to treat it as what it actually said.

Hence why my lease has a LOT of annotations on it before I would sign. I wanted things to be explicit, not rely on 'they can not POSSIBLY mean xyz'.
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Old 09-08-2013, 01:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Seriously Darien, you chose to repost the least accurate part of the other thread.

When things HAVE changed in the ToS, you can't possibly say that they haven't. We have discussed it, there is a significant change that now texture resource places are getting aware of, and no matter if LL's wording holds up in court or not, WE don't have the right to breach the resource sites ToS, just because we *think* the additions are drivel that won't stand up in court.

That wording still goes against many sites prohibiting the direct re-sell of their textures/meshes, and if we upload anything, we breach the license agreement.

I also doubt anything would come out of it (DMCA's and being dragged to court) but thats kinda the same as grabbing free models from sites, and selling them in SL without proper licensing. You can do it, but it doesn't make it right (or legal).
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Old 09-08-2013, 02:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell View Post
Assuming it was even meant the way Argent and others are deciding to interpret it.

[stuff reposted]

So in short, nothing of importance has changed. Move along, nothing to see here.
Removing "solely for the purposes of providing and promoting the Service" is a huge bloody change. If you can't see that you're willfully blind.
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Old 09-08-2013, 05:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Seriously Darien, you chose to repost the most accurate part of the other thread.
Fixed.

Sorry you guys disagree, but that's life.

In the end you should consult your lawer for legal advice.

I know i'm covered. I know LL can't simply take things that don't belong to them and which they Acknolwedge don't belong to them right in the TOS (read, and reread 2.3).

Saying anything else is true is just trying to manufacture drama. But I know that's what many here live for. so have at it.
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Old 09-08-2013, 05:12 PM   #13 (permalink)
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In case you guys seriously don't get it though, I'll give you one last example.

Lets say, LL put in the TOS:

200.34: "Anyone who logs into SL, is now required to give 80% of their income from all sources to us, in perpetuity."

Guess what, they aren't getting it. TOS can claim whatever they like, but if they don't hold up under current laws they don't hold up. No ifs, ands, or buts. If LL ever tried to enforce that, they would lose, every single time. (just as they have lost, every time their TOS has been brought before a judge).

But setting that aside, That's not even what the TOS is saying. I've clearly stated why LL includes the clauses they do, and what they mean. It's nothing as insidious as people are trying to make it out to be.

Even if it was, LL would lose. It's unenforceable.
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Old 09-08-2013, 06:00 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell View Post
In the end you should consult your lawer for legal advice.
Umm, yes?

I have yet to know one to hold the 'spirit' of a legal document as more real than the tooth fairy.
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Old 09-08-2013, 06:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
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It seems that you are the only one here not getting it.

LL can claim whatever they want, that doesn't need to be true. They can even claim to obtain full copyright of whatever is uploaded, without having the actual legal right for it.

We on the other hand, we CAN'T upload things from third party that prohibit re-sell (among other things) because then WE are breaking a ToS, not LL's, but the third party ToS. If we do, WE are at fault.


Also, i don't get how you suddenly lost your reading skills. Are you just trying to stirr shit on purpose? It certainly seems so.
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Old 09-08-2013, 06:10 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell View Post
In case you guys seriously don't get it though, I'll give you one last example.

Lets say, LL put in the TOS:

200.34: "Anyone who logs into SL, is now required to give 80% of their income from all sources to us, in perpetuity."

Guess what, they aren't getting it. TOS can claim whatever they like, but if they don't hold up under current laws they don't hold up. No ifs, ands, or buts. If LL ever tried to enforce that, they would lose, every single time. (just as they have lost, every time their TOS has been brought before a judge).
Maybe they would and maybe they would not, as long as they could prove what HUMAN agreed to that and that they did so knowingly. You are right that it would most likely be overturned as a practical matter ... but to do so you would need to go into a court, facing their $$ and legal team. I highly doubt most companies want a world where a bunch of armchair lawyers can interpret any relevant documents how they see fit without getting a judge or a lawyer to weigh in.
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Old 09-08-2013, 07:23 PM   #17 (permalink)
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It seems that you are the only one here not getting it.

LL can claim whatever they want, that doesn't need to be true. They can even claim to obtain full copyright of whatever is uploaded, without having the actual legal right for it.

We on the other hand, we CAN'T upload things from third party that prohibit re-sell (among other things) because then WE are breaking a ToS, not LL's, but the third party ToS. If we do, WE are at fault.


Also, i don't get how you suddenly lost your reading skills. Are you just trying to stirr shit on purpose? It certainly seems so.
lol. And yet you are the one who's made a career of disagreeing with everything I ever post, unconditionally. Who's stirring up what?

And yes you can upload things that prohibit resell, as long as you aren't selling it.

LL doesn't sell anything except on our behalf. They never have, they never will. Certainly not anything that doesn't belong to them, which is everything that users create.

I explained what the sell/resell clause means, I won't explain it again. But I guess your reading comprehension skills are the ones lacking.
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Old 09-08-2013, 07:24 PM   #18 (permalink)
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This has me spooked.

Does it mean we can't use CGTextures' textures on any Second Life content at all, even when it would be added to hand-painted or baked shading (clothing, furniture etc)? I've spun off an email to check with them, to be absolutely sure. If that's correct, and it's a matter of license, then does the same thing also apply to paid texture sites, like Turbosquid etc? It would be extremely limiting, if so.

It's difficult to find out without directly contacting them because the context is always in re-selling the textures as-is or with barely any modification.

And this is all beside what LL could possibly mean to do by opening their ToS like that. I've seen many times, people on deviantART and so on freaking out at that clause of the ToS but it is always limited to displaying content on the original website/service, rather than 'for any purpose whatsoever'.
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Old 09-08-2013, 07:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
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This has me spooked.

Does it mean we can't use CGTextures' textures on any Second Life content at all, even when it would be added to hand-painted or baked shading (clothing, furniture etc)? I've spun off an email to check with them, to be absolutely sure. If that's correct, and it's a matter of license, then does the same thing also apply to paid texture sites, like Turbosquid etc? It would be extremely limiting, if so.

It's difficult to find out without directly contacting them because the context is always in re-selling the textures as-is or with barely any modification.

And this is all beside what LL could possibly mean to do by opening their ToS like that. I've seen many times, people on deviantART and so on freaking out at that clause of the ToS but it is always limited to displaying content on the original website/service, rather than 'for any purpose whatsoever'.

According to CGTexture's rules, you can't even modified. But that is CGTexture's decision.

in reading closer, I found this disclosure on CGTexture's website interesting (and interesting that nobody pointed it out, since it didn't support their claims):

[CG Textures] -

Quote:
Are you talking to Linden Lab to come up with a solution?
We contacted Linden Lab about this problem, but in their response they (falsely!) claimed that their new TOS is more restrictive than the previous version. We asked them in what way it was more restrictive, but we received only nameless, canned replies on how we could get a texture removed if we did not agree with it's use. Apparently they don't care about this problem, so we don't see how we can come to a solution.

Of course the writer added in their own wrong opinion of (falsely), but if LL is saying this, it would further bolster the viewpoints I have expressed, and also weaken any attempt they could make in the future to try to 'steal' content. I had thought about sending a letter to LL's legal department for clarification; this saves me the trouble. To are clearly not trying to 'steal stuff out from under creators' as some claim.

So in short, the CGTextures guy has the right to do what he wants, and if that means not allowing works into SL, that's all fine and good. But his claims he has no choice, and that LL is gonna sell content out from under people, are fallacious. Like many he's singling out a single line or two out of a large document, and basing opinions on them out of context. you have to take the whole clause, or sometimes even the whole document as a whole. If you're picking lines, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 09-08-2013, 07:49 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Even if I don't worry about LL claiming my content, I still want (need?) to double-check with every texture website/creator I'd like to use something from.
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:08 PM   #21 (permalink)
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It's not so much about LL making a butt-stupid ToS that might be enforcable or not, it's about them making a butt-stupid ToS no stock content site will ever agree with.
Well ok, maybe not every single one. Just 99% of them, including the paid stock sites.



Also, i only disagree with posts that are plain wrong, or missing the point entirely.
Not because of overblown ego.
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell View Post
I know i'm covered. I know LL can't simply take things that don't belong to them and which they Acknolwedge don't belong to them right in the TOS (read, and reread 2.3).
You're conflating two things here: whether they are making a broader claim, and whether they can successfully defend that broader claim.

Whether they can or not, they have made that claim in the latest ToS update. It is a change in the ToS.

The SL ToS are still more liberal than other "game-like" sites that typically claim copyright on everything uploaded, but the new ToS are not substantially the same as the previous ToS, and they are making broader claims than most of the other sites ToS you quoted.

Again, it may be that this won't stick if it goes to court... but that's a separate issue.
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Of course the writer added in their own wrong opinion of (falsely)
Make up your mind, is it substantively identical (as you claim) or more restrictive (as LL is alleged to have claimed)? It can't be both.

If it is in fact more restrictive, then can you demonstrate where it imposes more restrictions on LL than the previous ToS?
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:36 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Even if I don't worry about LL claiming my content, I still want (need?) to double-check with every texture website/creator I'd like to use something from.
yes, and that has always been the case. You can't just upload things to SL willy-nilly.
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:43 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell View Post
I
200.34: "Anyone who logs into SL, is now required to give 80% of their income from all sources to us, in perpetuity."
Unlike our images and creative content, LL isn't managing all our 'income from all sources'.

If we had a private accountancy managing our finances, and if part of the contract we agreed to was that they got to keep 10% of all the income that they help us manage... it most certainly would hold up in court.

Context and subject matter are important. And in this context, the subject matter (our intellectual property which we have been 'safeguarding' on LL's proprietary servers) is largely at the whim of those that control access to it.

We can either withdraw our content, or put up with it.... but to be clear, this change in policy further limits our ability to seek compensation should the custodian of our data choose to exploit us.

And, like the example I gave above, that will most certainly stand up in court just fine, at our expense.
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