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Old 08-15-2013, 02:12 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Yipes - can't agree to TOS

So, apparently there's a new TOS to agree to? But, the problem is - I can't. The window pops up and there's no details and the "I agree" button is greyed out. I'm guessing I disabled something for security reasons that's stopping it - but I have no idea what.

Anyone?
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:20 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Just download and run the regular LL viewer, that will work
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:26 PM   #3 (permalink)
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So what did LL change in the TOS today? It seems to have went live in the last couple hours.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Be nice to get a diff on the new TOS.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:31 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I skimmed it, I couldn't find what was different. Then I got bored and clicked accept.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:33 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Yes, I found a copy from August 11th, and diffed it against this new one, and no differences encountered. but it's possible LL put the new one early, to flush the cache. Visually, it appears to be a complete overhaul. It seems to not be SL only, it is now a general TOS to cover all their products.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:44 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I see some interestingly unfamiliar clauses:

5.4 We may terminate your Accounts upon a general suspension or discontinuation of the Service.

(there's actually a lot of new verbiage about what will happen if SL were to 'end'. hmmm)

5.5 Upon Account termination, you will lose access to your Account and all licenses, Content, and data, and you understand this is a risk of participating in the Service.

7.4 Unsolicited Ideas and Materials Prohibited; No Confidential or Special Relationship with Linden Lab.

(basically saying don't give us your ideas, as we will have the right to use them as our own, don't expect confidentiality)

9.5 You are not our employee, and you have no rights to compensation.

(guess that had to be said?)

It also finally brings all the sub-agreements (policies) under one roof so to speak. previously the TOS never really referenced all the sub-policies. There's actually a lot more changes than this. It's going to take awhile to sort through it all.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
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in section 2.7 I see they specifically mention Desura, their latest purchase:

Quote:
Linden Lab’s Desura platform may offer modifications, add-ons and other content ("Mods") made by third party providers which can be downloaded and installed via the Service. The installation of Mods can affect other applications and existing games, programs and files on your device. With respect to all Mods, Linden Lab acts purely as an intermediary service provider enabling their installation. Linden Lab does not screen Mods through its Desura platform or through other sources. Linden lab does not assume any responsibility or liability for Mods to which you may elect to subscribe.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell View Post
I see some interestingly unfamiliar clauses:

5.4 We may terminate your Accounts upon a general suspension or discontinuation of the Service.

(there's actually a lot of new verbiage about what will happen if SL were to 'end'. hmmm)

5.5 Upon Account termination, you will lose access to your Account and all licenses, Content, and data, and you understand this is a risk of participating in the Service.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a case recently (or the threat of one) where subscribers to a game talked about suing the game company for closing down the game when many of them had lifetime subs? I honestly wasn't paying much attention, but I think the quoted paras are mainly ass-covering by LL.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:55 PM   #10 (permalink)
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maybe, i'm not familiar with that case.

most of the rest is standard "don't sue us, we had nothing to do with it" stuff. Seem ok enough to agree to.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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There seems to be a new change that will provide users with more protection from losing content they purchased/licensed from other users. Some of you may recall how an unscrupulous game creator used hidden code to remotely destroy games I bought from him. This change would seem to disallow that:

From 2.4:

Your interactions with the Service may include use of the Second Life permissions system and the copy, modify, and transfer settings for indicating how other users may use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, or perform your Content In-World subject to these Terms of Service. Any agreement you make with other users relating to use or access to your Content must be consistent with these Terms of Service, and no such agreement can abrogate, nullify, void or modify these Terms of Service.

and:

2.6 You may delete copies of your Content from the Service, and the licenses you have granted for the deleted copies will terminate with certain limitations.
Where permitted, you may delete copies or instances of your Content that you have displayed In-World or that are in your Account inventory through the normal functionality of the Service, including by emptying the trash folder in your Account inventory (such as in Second Life). In such event, the licenses granted by you in this Section 2 shall terminate in the manner provided below, but only for those particular copies or instances of Content that you have deleted from the Service.

You acknowledge that this termination will not apply to any other copies or instances of the same Content that you have not specifically deleted from the Service, including without limitation those that may be displayed elsewhere In-World and those that may be in the Account inventories of other users to whom you transferred copies.

You acknowledge that the Snapshot and Machinima Content License granted to Linden Lab and other users with respect to your Content will survive any such termination.

You also acknowledge that the Service Content License granted to Linden Lab with respect to your Content will survive any such termination solely as follows to permit Linden Lab: (i) to retain server copies of particular instances of your Content, including copies stored in connection with back-up, debugging, and testing procedures; and (ii) to enable the exercise of the licenses granted in this Section 2for any other copies or instances of the same Content that you have not specifically deleted from the Service, including those that may be displayed elsewhere In-World or exist in other users' Account inventories.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:13 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Has LL ever been sued over anything else than the Taser case?
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
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It has been pointed out in the Official Forum (where the analysis is otherwise nowhere near as thorough as here it is, I think) that Section 11.4 appears to remove the requirement for LL to give 30 days' notice of changes to the ToS.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:18 PM   #14 (permalink)
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someone pointed me to this:

New World Notes: Class Action Lawsuit Against Linden Lab for Suspended Accounts Settled for $172,000 Paid in Linden Dollars UPDATE: Legal Expert Says "Looks like Linden Lab lost"

It may be this has something to do with the TOS changes as well.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
It has been pointed out in the Official Forum (where the analysis is otherwise nowhere near as thorough as here it is, I think) that Section 11.4 appears to remove the requirement for LL to give 30 days' notice of changes to the ToS.
Well, the old TOS said new terms didn't go into effect until 30 days after the change. And yes that part is gone.

As always LL doesn't have to give any notice to make TOS changes.

I was never sure why they put that 30 days effective part in there. I can see why they would remove it.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:32 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Thinking about "9.5 You are not our employee",

Does that mean if a Linden agrees to the TOS, they are summarily fired?
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell View Post
Thinking about "9.5 You are not our employee",

Does that mean if a Linden agrees to the TOS, they are summarily fired?
Haven't they been doing that for years already?
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:45 PM   #18 (permalink)
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In the past 'material changes' required a 30 day waiting period after notice. Other changes could be effective immediately upon notice. There weren't any change allowed without notice. (Although some changes were made without notice.)

Now changes can be made at any time without notice. You're supposed to read the whole thing over periodically to stay current.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:53 PM   #19 (permalink)
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In the past 'material changes' required a 30 day waiting period after notice. Other changes could be effective immediately upon notice. There weren't any change allowed without notice. (Although some changes were made without notice.)

Now changes can be made at any time without notice. You're supposed to read the whole thing over periodically to stay current.
Yes, but they can't make a change without having you agree at login. Otherwise you never agreed, so it's unenforceable.

In the end you still get notice. The fact you have to agree to a new one is probably notice enough.
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:09 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Darien Caldwell View Post
Yes, but they can't make a change without having you agree at login. Otherwise you never agreed, so it's unenforceable.

In the end you still get notice. The fact you have to agree to a new one is probably notice enough.
As with so many things legal it really helps to read the document. Your view of how you will agree to changes isn't the same as the LL.

"...your use of the Service after we post the Updated Terms (or engaging in other such conduct as we may reasonably specify) constitutes your agreement to the Updated Terms. "
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:16 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
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As with so many things legal it really helps to read the document. Your view of how you will agree to changes isn't the same as the LL.

"...your use of the Service after we post the Updated Terms (or engaging in other such conduct as we may reasonably specify) constitutes your agreement to the Updated Terms. "

It's irrelevant though. No court of law would find a TOS that says "you agree to any and all changes we make in the future" reasonably enforceable.

No more than a court would allow "you agree to pay any fees we may decide to arbitrarily impose at any time in the future" enforceable.

A TOS is a contract, and contract law is pretty basic. you can't have someone agree, and then change the terms later without their consent.

Can't legally be done, ever.

Either LL asks you to agree or the TOS changes don't apply to you. If LL continues to let you log in without asking for agreement, that's an oversight on their part, in the eyes of the law.

I think LL is smart enough to know this. I expect they will ask for agreement. It's not onerous on their part to do so, the mechanics have existed In the viewer for years.

Last edited by Darien Caldwell; 08-15-2013 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:26 PM   #22 (permalink)
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All they have to do is kick everyone. Grid closure... then everyone has to re-log in and agree to the new TOS to continue.
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:35 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eunoli Rain View Post
So, apparently there's a new TOS to agree to? But, the problem is - I can't. The window pops up and there's no details and the "I agree" button is greyed out. I'm guessing I disabled something for security reasons that's stopping it - but I have no idea what.

Anyone?
The TOS requires the client's internal browser to be properly functioning. If you're still not getting the button up, try Radegast. Since last I checked, Radegast displays the TOS in plain text instead of as a web page and is more likely to load and provide an 'Accept' button. (^_^)y
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:41 PM   #24 (permalink)
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The TOS agreement is working on Firestorm (I just did it).
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:41 PM   #25 (permalink)
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If you want to be a contract purist, the offer and acceptance of the ToS does not meet the bare requirements of a contract. One of the requirements of a contract is Consideration- which is the mutual exchange of something valuable. Under the terms of the ToS, you owe a big stack of duties and responsibilities to Linden Lab; however, it owes you precisely nothing in return. If Linden Lab is giving you nothing of value in return for your duties and responsibilities, then there is no contract; your agreement to the ToS is merely a promise, and mere promises are not legally enforceable.

Theoretically, "access to the service" could be the thing Linden Lab is offering you for your agreement to the ToS. But if they restrict that access such that they may revoke your access at any time for any or no reason at their whim, then you are not actually receiving "access to the service."
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